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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 12:09:51 GMT -5
Ah, the boy scout manual. I wish I had an older edition. Atlas Shrugged - I have read none of her works, but from what I have seen of Rand in interviews she was all about self building up and glory at others' expense.Oh, and on a line with BS Manual I read My Side of the Mountain, which was about a boy going off by himself to live in the woods. Loved the movie, but it missed a lot. So what else is new.? David, I would respectfully say to you that you have misunderstood Ayn Rand an huge way. I've read everything she's written. From Ayn Rand.... "My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." Objectivism is the philosophy of rational individualism She is very often misquoted or deomonized, primarily by those that want you or I to succumb to the mob mentality, under the false guise of altruism. Start off with her book "Anthem". After than Try "Fountainhead", then "Atlas Shrugged". "We the Living" is an excellent novel about post revolutionary Russia. Finally he book "Objectivism" is an excellent read. I will readily admit that although a fan of hers, I disagree with her completely on her position in respect to God. She seems to have been caught up in being unable to differentiate the difference between Organized Religion and that of Spirituality. Take Care Dino I've read some Ayn Rand and think she's had a profoundly negative influence on American society and values. She uses capitalism to justify an every-man-for-himself mentality, and shows a complete lack of community spirit, empathy, compassion, human commonality, or love for ones fellow humans. She's the antithesis of the teachings of Jesus, as well as being appallingly racist. Reading what she wrote about Native Americans makes me want to vomit.
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Post by Darin on Jan 2, 2018 12:17:46 GMT -5
Agreed ... her own personal life reflected these wrong-placed values as well and it turned out in shambles.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 12:34:46 GMT -5
David, I would respectfully say to you that you have misunderstood Ayn Rand an huge way. I've read everything she's written. From Ayn Rand.... "My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." Objectivism is the philosophy of rational individualism She is very often misquoted or deomonized, primarily by those that want you or I to succumb to the mob mentality, under the false guise of altruism. Start off with her book "Anthem". After than Try "Fountainhead", then "Atlas Shrugged". "We the Living" is an excellent novel about post revolutionary Russia. Finally he book "Objectivism" is an excellent read. I will readily admit that although a fan of hers, I disagree with her completely on her position in respect to God. She seems to have been caught up in being unable to differentiate the difference between Organized Religion and that of Spirituality. Take Care Dino I've read some Ayn Rand and think she's had a profoundly negative influence on American society and values. She uses capitalism to justify an every-man-for-himself mentality, and shows a complete lack of community spirit, empathy, compassion, human commonality, or love for ones fellow humans. She's the antithesis of the teachings of Jesus, as well as being appallingly racist. Reading what she wrote about Native Americans makes me want to vomit. I am only going by interviews with her. What I got is similar to what Chico got. I didn't catch any Native Americanism in what she said. Dino, you just nailed what is often the issue with people like Bill Maher. They criticize religion, but don't separate it from faith. When nailed down on the issue Richard Dawkins said that if faith made you (the person he was being interviewed by) a better person then he was for it
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Post by bonanzadriver on Jan 2, 2018 12:59:22 GMT -5
Chico, to you and all other would be Ayn Rand opposers / critics , I wold respectfully submit that until you've actually read her work and her thoughts on her philosophy, that you cannot truly offer any substantive commentary other than that of a person repeating soundbites and offering little more than the expurgated input that will undoubtedly result.
To quote Stephen Covey, I would ask that you "Seek First to Understand... Then to be Understood".
Many would be detractors of her philosophy are the first to denounce her philosophy as being antithetical to the teachings of the Bible, but those very detractors would be the first to voice outrage over prayer in school or at a school assembly.
As for her use of capitalism to justify mans greed, I think this grossly misses her point. She is really doing nothing more than embracing the words and ideals of this country's Founding Fathers.... That our inalienable rights are NOT given to us by man but Recognized by our government, a duly elected Representative Republic.
Her vocal acknowledgement that I am entitled to the fruits of MY Labors, to do with as I see fit, is spot on with the sentiment of those that fought, bled and died for our country's very creation and subsequent existence.
As I stated in the previous post Chico, I disagree with her position on God. She has a real burr under her saddle with regards to Organized Religion, and it does cloud her judgement in that area. But this does not detract from the fact that she has apologetically said and written what many, many of us know to be true.
As to what she "wrote" about Native Americans? This is another oft misquoted position from those that oppose her conservative political leanings. The position you site was actually after a speech given @ West Point, and was part of a Q&A Session.
I won't say that her response is exactly the way I see it, but it really was a bit of a "Gotcha" type of question in the first place.
For those out there that have not truly read her work, just the opinions and commentary of others that most likely have not read it either, I would encourage you to watch this video...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 13:37:38 GMT -5
Dino, I did read Atlas Shrugged, and dipped into Virtues of Selfishness - albeit when I was a teenager. That was enough for me. I didn't feel she deserved more of my time, and I honestly felt the same way as when I read parts of Mein Kampf - like I was looking into the mind of an angry, hateful, but dangerously intelligent person. I mentioned the teachings of Jesus specifically (not the Bible in general). The fact that her teachings are antithetical to them has nothing to do with the debate about the Constitutional separation of church and state. Many devout American Christians do not think there should be prayer in schools, and believe in freedom of religion. I agree that we have inalienable rights (ostensibly) guaranteed by our governments, and of course that we can all do what we wish to do with the fruits of our labor. But why that should result in a default stance of selfishness and a lack of charitable or compassionate values is beyond me. I've never seen anything written by or about Rand showing a concern for the betterment of humankind as whole, or any kind of community focus. It's all me, me, me, and more me. And yes, I misspoke when I referred to what she "wrote" about Native Americas. There's a full transcript here en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Ayn_Rand (at the 17:45 mark). I see no "gotcha" question - they just asked her to elaborate on something she'd mentioned earlier, and she does not seem to be uncertain or halting in her answer. It's not only offensive, but also profoundly ignorant of the historical facts, and frankly just unhinged. I hope that we are not at the stage where these kinds of opinions are seen as simply valid "conservative political leanings", and facts be damned. Anyway, I'll back out now - we're at the politics and religion precipice!
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Post by Darin on Jan 2, 2018 13:46:29 GMT -5
I also am not an "uninformed bystander" and formed my opinions by reading for myself.
In fact, it was less than a few months ago that I read "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal". It was offered to me to read after a debate with a co-worker about how money all floats to the top and I still don't agree.
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Post by bonanzadriver on Jan 2, 2018 14:19:55 GMT -5
Chico, I appreciate that you read the entire book of Atlas Shrugged. This puts you in the distinct minority. As you may well have surmised, from my previous statements, I do grow weary from discussing a person's sound bite philosophy, derived from little less than someone else's sound bites. Not trying to be political here, more historically correct actually, but the whole Separation of Church and State was actually intended as a means by which to prevent the Government from endorsing, supporting, coercing or demanding where and who we worship. As to her apparent anger in her writings.... Yeah, I see some of that as well and as I've said previously, this seems to bleed over into her loathing of Religion. You probably know though that her philosophy is most certainly a result of her family losing everything in the Bolshevik Revolution. It has been widely speculated that her novel "We The Living", though written as a work of fiction, is actually quite autobiographical and mirrors her own experiences. aynrandlexicon.com/about-ayn-rand/bio.htmlMy personal take-away, on her philosophy is this Chico... She whole heatedly supported the rights of the individual, free and unfettered from the "Group-Think-de-Jour", which though labeled as "for the children" or "your fellow man" is most often nothing less than taking from you what is rightfully yours, often at the end of a gun, and giving to others, often not because of their need, but because of ones connections or who they know. Her personal take on altruism was that although by definition should be from one's own motivation, it is often the quoted reason for imposing the will of the mob onto the individual. She abhorred communism and its twin, socialism, as do I. With all of that being said I think it bears mentioning that I am not an atheist. I am a Christian, involved with my church and sing in the choir. But I am fiercely independent and abhor anything that lends itself to a person or group of person's trying to impose their will upon me or others. Jesus' teachings were Hope, Peace & Love. Not one of Control or Despotism. And definitely Not subjugating one's self to the whims of those perceived to be empowered or entitled, or worse yet, those that have intentionally made efforts to put themselves in a position to control or rule others.
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Post by bonanzadriver on Jan 2, 2018 14:48:00 GMT -5
I also am not an "uninformed bystander" and formed my opinions by reading for myself. In fact, it was less than a few months ago that I read "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal". It was offered to me to read after a debate with a co-worker about how money all floats to the top and I still don't agree. Didn't know I had stated or inferred that you personally were? The book you referenced, based on a series of essays originally published in her newsletters, is but one part of a multi-faceted ideal. As to the debate with a co-worker.... Not enough context here to comment. So, what exactly is the rub? The fact that she apologetically espouses her belief that you, I and she are entitled to the fruits of our own labors, unfettered by the whims or machinations of others? I feel that we're getting caught up by words. Her use of "selfish" though unseemly in a politically correct world, is nonetheless accurate. If you don't take care of yourself, how can you provide for your family? Surely you're not implying that I don't have the right, to do with as I wish, with what I have earned?
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Post by PhantomWolf on Jan 2, 2018 15:20:49 GMT -5
I remember Lord of the Flies, as someone mentioned. It was enlightening, especially since the chubby boy was like looking in a mirror I always think that Lord of the Flies had a lot to do with me being effective in my leadership role in the military. Another great one in the vein would be The Butterfly Revolution. Any book really that shows what happens when selfish, ignorant, cowardly, people who lack empathy find themselves in charge.
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Post by Darin on Jan 2, 2018 15:27:08 GMT -5
My comment was in response to this:
Just wanted to clarify that I had, indeed, read the literature and was not just "repeating soundbites".
Also, if you'd like to know more about the basis of my objections you should read Immanuel Kant, Rene Descartes, etc ... REAL philosophers, IMHO.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 16:58:15 GMT -5
Dino, I came across Atlas Shrugged as a science fiction novel, without much interest in Rand or even knowledge of her stances or influence. Having also read 1984, Brave New World, etc., I was unimpressed on both literary and conceptual levels. It's been a long time, but my memory is that she seemed to be advocating the kind of world the others were warning against.
I understand about church and state - which is exactly why prayer does not belong in school - and I say that whether it's Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or whatever. Prayer in public school is precisely the government "endorsing, supporting, coercing or demanding where and who we worship." I do believe World Religions should be studied in school, for a social/historical perspective, though.
As for the meaning of her work for you personally, it seems to me that there are better thinkers on the rights of the individual, and that the key take-away about fruits of labor etc. is fairly uncontroversial. Unless she/you mean this at an absolute level, of no taxes, no public schools, no military, or any other federal or state institutions our taxes go to. But to me that's just anarchy - and not in the utopian sense.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Jan 2, 2018 17:48:33 GMT -5
Very cool. I may buy his book. Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 18:47:34 GMT -5
Jane Schwartz wrote an incredibly descriptive account about one of the best race horses which ever looked through a bridle in the modern racing era few know about, Ruffian: Burning from the Start. I couldn't put it down.
I consider Das Kapital a must read among the economic classics despite the fact I disagree with some of its underlying premises. Although primarily credited to Karl Marx, most agree Friedrich Engels did the majority if not all the heavy lifting which is central to any credible analysis.
Lastly this evening, the original Investing for Dummies by Eric Tyson may be somewhat dated; however, it's still a good primer for anybody thinking about dipping their toe in the markets.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 18:47:54 GMT -5
I have to admit to unique reasons for reading books. I was supposed to read Lord of the Flies for Freshman English. Well, I read the whole darn thing before I could get to the store for the Cliff Notes.
I was introduced to Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet (and then his other works) by Kathy Longlegs in the Hideaway Piano Bar. Kathy was 6'3" and one of the best drunks among friends. So, at her suggestion I read it.
1984 - Was given a choice (Freshman again) between that and Brave New World. Never read the latter, but read 1984 3 times.
My twin brother is big on Rand. I have no good reasons for not reading her, but as weird as some of my reasons for reading books my reasons for not reading them are as nonsensical. I won't read Christopher Hitchens because I don't like him. It's not because he was an atheist. I would read Dawkins, Hawking, and DeGrasse (the last one is agnostic) even though I may have issue. Love DeGrasse, btw. I would not read Bill Maher though I DO agree with about half of what he says. It's just a feeling I get why or why not. I like Gary Cooper but have not seen the Fountainhead.
So, when people suggest something in the way of a book to me, or a movie, it's hit or miss if I give it a go.
I said all that to say this: This is why there is seldom rhyme or reason to what I say or when I say it. That's how my brain operates. A friend of mine used to say my logic is illogical. I rest my case
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Post by philobeddoe on Jan 3, 2018 1:00:58 GMT -5
In no particular order:
Sirens Of Titan ~ Kurt Vonnegut Cat’s Cradle ~ Kurt Vonnegut Utilitarianism ~ John Stuart Mill Philosophical Investigations ~ Ludwig Wittgenstein The Marine Chronometer: It’s History And Development ~ Rupert Gould The Art Of The Pin Up ~ Dian Hanson Camping And Woodcraft ~ Horace Kephart Outdoor Survival Skills ~ Larry Dean Olsen Safari Rifles ~ Craig Boddington Hell, I Was There ~ Elmer Keith
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 1:12:26 GMT -5
In no particular order: Sirens Of Titan ~ Kurt Vonnegut Cat’s Cradle ~ Kurt Vonnegut Utilitarianism ~ John Stuart Mill Philosophical Investigations ~ Ludwig Wittgenstein The Marine Chronometer: It’s History And Development ~ Rupert Gould The Art Of The Pin Up ~ Dian Hanson Camping And Woodcraft ~ Horace Kephart Outdoor Survival Skills ~ Larry Dean Olsen Safari Rifles ~ Craig Boddington Hell, I Was There ~ Elmer Keith Pretty sure I had the book Art of the Pin up. as to Vonnegut I loved Breakfast of Champions
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Post by philobeddoe on Jan 3, 2018 1:20:22 GMT -5
I could have picked all ten by Vonnegut, he is/was my favorite author.
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