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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 11:55:24 GMT -5
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Post by pepesdad1 on Jul 26, 2018 13:01:15 GMT -5
Of course, the "premium" cigar is what is smoked by those who are legislating. 1 cigar a month...what a load of crap that is.
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Post by Wolfman on Jul 26, 2018 13:03:17 GMT -5
That’s an interesting point considering one of the organizations was the International Premium Cigar and Pipe Retailers Association. It was noted the current administration has been ‘deregulating’ various industries. However (also mentioned), the loss of potential tax revenues will likely squash our hope.
Personally, I don’t foresee this working out in our favor. I’m slowly building a cellar when finances permit. I try to only buy what I like to smoke, with the assumption it won’t be available in the not to distant future. I’m not predicting a tobacco doomsday. I just sense the government will make it more difficult on the production end.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 13:06:58 GMT -5
The sale of online tobacco’s / tobacco products is not far behind....JMHO
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Post by Wolfman on Jul 26, 2018 14:57:19 GMT -5
@lonecoyote EspecIally now since the Supreme Court ruling last month in favor of the a state’s right to enforce the collection of sales tax from internet sales where the company is out of state.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 15:56:26 GMT -5
Sam ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ that’s my theory as well, I hate too admit..
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Post by zambini on Jul 26, 2018 16:42:50 GMT -5
So our defense is officially:
1)No 'artificial additives, and chemical engineering' 2)'luxury items purchased and smoked infrequently' 3)'not used by consumers as an alternative or supplemental source of nicotine' 4)'machines and volume consolidate the market into a handful of products' i.e. manufacturers are too small and diverse to effect mass changes on the market
I don't know how well this same defense has worked the last ten years but it really sounds as if the industry is taking a meek and slow approach to things.
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Post by daveinlax on Jul 26, 2018 19:21:17 GMT -5
I've been a CRA member since day one and it's easy to define a Premium Hand Rolled Cigar from a grape blunt, Swisher Sweet or the carton's of little cigars they sell at the outlets for $20.00 and I expect we will get an exemption. We have a lot of friends on both sides of the aisle.
IMO traditional pipe tobacco is fucked because most of the "pipe tobacco" sold is relabeled RYO cigarette tobacco. Big tobacco wants tax parity with their products for RYO and they will eventually get it and there is nothing that traditional can do about it.
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Post by trailboss on Jul 27, 2018 1:09:38 GMT -5
I am afraid that Dave nailed it. Once the RYO loophole opened up, it was just a matter of time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 13:24:03 GMT -5
I am afraid that Dave nailed it. Once the RYO loophole opened up, it was just a matter of time. In fact, I think we can pretty much blame cigarette smokers for the entire anti-smoking hysteria. No offense to anyone who smokes them here (I used to myself), but they vile, foul-smelling things that give tobacco a bad name. Pipes and cigars got tarred with the same brush and those chemical-filled reprocessed tobacco-reclamation products.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 13:59:26 GMT -5
I am afraid that Dave nailed it. Once the RYO loophole opened up, it was just a matter of time. In fact, I think we can pretty much blame cigarette smokers for the entire anti-smoking hysteria. No offense to anyone who smokes them here (I used to myself), but they vile, foul-smelling things that give tobacco a bad name. Pipes and cigars got tarred with the same brush and those chemical-filled reprocessed tobacco-reclamation products. I agree, plus the FDA wants stringent regulations on ALL vaping oils/products. Who really knows what chemical your vaping.....especially those oils imported from China! Ummmm like that “ fiberglass & asbestos vanilla flavored oil please “!!!
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Post by Cramptholomew on Jul 27, 2018 16:44:25 GMT -5
In fact, I think we can pretty much blame cigarette smokers for the entire anti-smoking hysteria. No offense to anyone who smokes them here (I used to myself), but they vile, foul-smelling things that give tobacco a bad name. Pipes and cigars got tarred with the same brush and those chemical-filled reprocessed tobacco-reclamation products. I agree, plus the FDA wants stringent regulations on ALL vaping oils/products. Who really knows what chemical your vaping.....especially those oils imported from China! Ummmm like that “ fiberglass & asbestos vanilla flavored oil please “!!! I know what chemicals I'm vaping. I make my own liquid. I don't buy from anywhere, let alone know anyone who buys from china. The base "chemicals" are Vegetable Glycerin, PG, nicotine (suspended in VG or PG), and concentrated food flavorings, almost all of which have MSDS data sheets. All "chemicals" are FDA GRAS. Hell of a lot better than smoking. There are over 4000 chemicals in cigarettes, and many of those they have no idea what their effect is. The consensus is out on vaping, but from all points, it sure is far less detrimental than cigarettes. I've said before, that the government is having a hard time trying sin tax vaping, and they're using the most obvious aspect to vilify it - kids like sweet and fruity flavors. Now, I don't know about you, but I'm 42, and I still like sweet and fruity flavors. Edit: unfortunately the flavors issue is probably what has caused the FDA to attack all traditonal nicotine products, including pipe tobacco. Any casing, I assume, is considered "kid friendly" by default. Being a vaper and piper, I'm frustrated on both counts. And, I apologise to you non vapers for its effects on our pipe hobby. I will say, I'd definitely still be smoking cigarettes without finding vaping - along with millions of other people.
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Post by Legend Lover on Jul 27, 2018 16:53:34 GMT -5
I agree, plus the FDA wants stringent regulations on ALL vaping oils/products. Who really knows what chemical your vaping.....especially those oils imported from China! Ummmm like that “ fiberglass & asbestos vanilla flavored oil please “!!! I know what chemicals I'm vaping. I make my own liquid. I don't buy from anywhere, let alone know anyone who buys from china. The base "chemicals" are Vegetable Glycerin, PG, nicotine (suspended in VG or PG), and concentrated food flavorings, almost all of which have MSDS data sheets. All "chemicals" are FDA GRAS. Hell of a lot better than smoking. There are over 4000 chemicals in cigarettes, and many of those they have no idea what their effect is. The consensus is out on vaping, but from all points, it sure is far less detrimental than cigarettes. I've said before, that the government is having a hard time trying sin tax vaping, and they're using the most obvious aspect to vilify it - kids like sweet and fruity flavors. Now, I don't know about you, but I'm 42, and I still like sweet and fruity flavors. I use the epuffer every now and then when I'm in the mood for a pipe in the house. epuffer.co.uk/#/product/30134I buy the eliquid online but from what I hope is a reputable site. I hope so anyway. Things will change soon I'm sure. I get why the fda want some control of it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 16:56:55 GMT -5
I agree, plus the FDA wants stringent regulations on ALL vaping oils/products. Who really knows what chemical your vaping.....especially those oils imported from China! Ummmm like that “ fiberglass & asbestos vanilla flavored oil please “!!! I know what chemicals I'm vaping. I make my own liquid. I don't buy from anywhere, let alone know anyone who buys from china. The base "chemicals" are Vegetable Glycerin, PG, nicotine (suspended in VG or PG), and concentrated food flavorings, almost all of which have MSDS data sheets. All "chemicals" are FDA GRAS. Hell of a lot better than smoking. There are over 4000 chemicals in cigarettes, and many of those they have no idea what their effect is. The consensus is out on vaping, but from all points, it sure is far less detrimental than cigarettes. I've said before, that the government is having a hard time trying sin tax vaping, and they're using the most obvious aspect to vilify it - kids like sweet and fruity flavors. Now, I don't know about you, but I'm 42, and I still like sweet and fruity flavors. There are 2 Vaping shops nearby that sell flavored oil, its stamped Made in China. My granddaughter purchased 3 different types. I told her to make her own and I’d help her. I know from reading your prior threads that you make ALL of your own flavored oils with no additives, that’s why I offered my help to my granddaughter, no such luck, @20 years old she knows it all. Vaping is nothing like smoking cigarettes, that I totally understand 👍👍
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 17:42:39 GMT -5
There are a couple of outfits that produce 100% natural vape liquids made from premium pipe tobacco and cigars. I've tried a couple and they're okay - if I really want to "smoke" in the house in winter, for example. Here's one: www.naturally-extracted-tobacco.com
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Post by Matthew on Jul 28, 2018 23:53:47 GMT -5
I am afraid that Dave nailed it. Once the RYO loophole opened up, it was just a matter of time. In fact, I think we can pretty much blame cigarette smokers for the entire anti-smoking hysteria. No offense to anyone who smokes them here (I used to myself), but they vile, foul-smelling things that give tobacco a bad name. Pipes and cigars got tarred with the same brush and those chemical-filled reprocessed tobacco-reclamation products. In fact, I think we can pretty much blame cigarette smokers for the entire anti-smoking hysteria. No offense to anyone who smokes them here (I used to myself), but they vile, foul-smelling things that give tobacco a bad name. Pipes and cigars got tarred with the same brush and those chemical-filled reprocessed tobacco-reclamation products. I agree, plus the FDA wants stringent regulations on ALL vaping oils/products. Who really knows what chemical your vaping.....especially those oils imported from China! Ummmm like that “ fiberglass & asbestos vanilla flavored oil please “!!! Being a cigarette smoker,I have been vilified by all "Morally" superior people.Even in the tobacco community I am the epitome of all discontent and societal problems. I'm going to take a break for awhile now,and think upon my sins.I have a starter box of Chantix sitting in front of me,but it's hard to make the decision to quit when my cigarettes have been my most faithful friend.Yes,it's an addiction.Yes,it's harmful.But I only drink occasionally, I don't run the bars.I don't chase women,or bet.So my only true vice has to be taken from me.Oh Well. Yeah,I take the comments personally.Just most often choose to let them slide.But,I need a break.Catch ya in a bit.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 0:35:38 GMT -5
In fact, I think we can pretty much blame cigarette smokers for the entire anti-smoking hysteria. No offense to anyone who smokes them here (I used to myself), but they vile, foul-smelling things that give tobacco a bad name. Pipes and cigars got tarred with the same brush and those chemical-filled reprocessed tobacco-reclamation products. I agree, plus the FDA wants stringent regulations on ALL vaping oils/products. Who really knows what chemical your vaping.....especially those oils imported from China! Ummmm like that “ fiberglass & asbestos vanilla flavored oil please “!!! Being a cigarette smoker,I have been vilified by all "Morally" superior people.Even in the tobacco community I am the epitome of all discontent and societal problems. I'm going to take a break for awhile now,and think upon my sins.I have a starter box of Chantix sitting in front of me,but it's hard to make the decision to quit when my cigarettes have been my most faithful friend.Yes,it's an addiction.Yes,it's harmful.But I only drink occasionally, I don't run the bars.I don't chase women,or bet.So my only true vice has to be taken from me.Oh Well. Yeah,I take the comments personally.Just most often choose to let them slide.But,I need a break.Catch ya in a bit. Like I said, no offense, nothing personal and I'm an ex-smoker myself. Nobody holds you personally responsible for the cigarette and RYO industries.
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Post by trailboss on Jul 29, 2018 1:01:59 GMT -5
I blame the knuckleheads that think it is their mission in life to control others.
The RYO “loophole” was just a convenient vehicle to travel on.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 1:08:41 GMT -5
Assuming this passes, I hope more of the FDA overreach can be rescinded; starting with premium pipe tobacco of course. This is a very optimistic outlook, but I'm hopeful. The elections later this year will be important ('nuff said on that).
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Post by Cramptholomew on Jul 29, 2018 9:32:15 GMT -5
In fact, I think we can pretty much blame cigarette smokers for the entire anti-smoking hysteria. No offense to anyone who smokes them here (I used to myself), but they vile, foul-smelling things that give tobacco a bad name. Pipes and cigars got tarred with the same brush and those chemical-filled reprocessed tobacco-reclamation products. I agree, plus the FDA wants stringent regulations on ALL vaping oils/products. Who really knows what chemical your vaping.....especially those oils imported from China! Ummmm like that “ fiberglass & asbestos vanilla flavored oil please “!!! Being a cigarette smoker,I have been vilified by all "Morally" superior people.Even in the tobacco community I am the epitome of all discontent and societal problems. I'm going to take a break for awhile now,and think upon my sins.I have a starter box of Chantix sitting in front of me,but it's hard to make the decision to quit when my cigarettes have been my most faithful friend.Yes,it's an addiction.Yes,it's harmful.But I only drink occasionally, I don't run the bars.I don't chase women,or bet.So my only true vice has to be taken from me.Oh Well. Yeah,I take the comments personally.Just most often choose to let them slide.But,I need a break.Catch ya in a bit. If the Chantix doesn't work out, I can help you get started with a vape. Like I said before, I'd still be smoking cigarettes without it. It's also a hell of a lot cheaper. Especially if you make your own liquid. It costs me about $4 for a week's worth of liquid.
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Post by pepesdad1 on Jul 29, 2018 9:46:04 GMT -5
I know of several long time (40+ years) smokers who have quit cigarettes by vaping. It works...simple as that. Yes they substituted one "vice" for another, but stopping vaping was a whole lot easier (so they say).
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Post by Cramptholomew on Jul 29, 2018 10:43:45 GMT -5
I know of several long time (40+ years) smokers who have quit cigarettes by vaping. It works...simple as that. Yes they substituted one "vice" for another, but stopping vaping was a whole lot easier (so they say). I'm still vaping after 5 years. I literally substituted one for the other. I vape almost no nicotine at this point, it just fits the bill for the smoking habit. I'd like to quit at some point, but I don't feel like it's a necessity.
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Post by Legend Lover on Jul 29, 2018 10:44:54 GMT -5
I know of several long time (40+ years) smokers who have quit cigarettes by vaping. It works...simple as that. Yes they substituted one "vice" for another, but stopping vaping was a whole lot easier (so they say). I'm still vaping after 5 years. I literally substituted one for the other. I vape almost no nicotine at this point, it just fits the bill for the smoking habit. I'd like to quit at some point, but I don't feel like it's a necessity. how often would you vape compared to pipe smoking?
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Post by Cramptholomew on Jul 29, 2018 10:57:07 GMT -5
I'm still vaping after 5 years. I literally substituted one for the other. I vape almost no nicotine at this point, it just fits the bill for the smoking habit. I'd like to quit at some point, but I don't feel like it's a necessity. how often would you vape compared to pipe smoking? I vape about as often as I smoked cigs, comparatively. I usually smoke a pipe at night, a few times a week, unless it's a weekend, or I'm on vacation, like the last two weeks. Vaping affords me the ability to do it in the house, since my wife is amenable to that.
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Post by jeffd on Jul 29, 2018 15:15:38 GMT -5
IMO there is no reason to blame cigarette smokers. They are just people who smoke. They are not trying to "get away with anything." They haven't done anything wrong.
The problem is people deliberately conflating cigarettes with all the other ways tobacco is used. Its deliberate, the regulators know better.
I had a boss once who smoked cigarettes, and he was the only cigarette smoker I ever met guilty of trying to control my life. And it was because he was the south end of a north bound horse, not because he smoked.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 16:14:03 GMT -5
IMO there is no reason to blame cigarette smokers. They are just people who smoke. They are not trying to "get away with anything." They haven't done anything wrong. The problem is people deliberately conflating cigarettes with all the other ways tobacco is used. Its deliberate, the regulators know better. I had a boss once who smoked cigarettes, and he was the only cigarette smoker I ever met guilty of trying to control my life. And it was because he was the south end of a north bound horse, not because he smoked. Yeah, I misspoke and should have chosen my words more carefully (apologies @matthew and anyone else who took offense). I really didn't mean cigarette smokers on any personal level. What I meant was the RYO/cigarette conflation you mentioned, and the fact that the deadly effects of cigarettes smoking has been applied wholesale to "tobacco" overall. Most people genuinely believe that smoking a pipe is as dangerous as smoking cigarettes. Cigarettes have made all tobacco "evil" in the public perception. Not to mention the cigarette industry's dirty practices, putting out inferior products with chemicals added to enhance their addictiveness, and designed to be inhaled. As with certain kinds of pharmaceuticals, I think the public is victimized by cigarette makers. The horrific shite that goes into cigarettes is what the FDA should be regulating, not whether a pipe blend has been made prior to 2007 etc.
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Post by Legend Lover on Jul 29, 2018 16:45:47 GMT -5
What I meant was the RYO/cigarette conflation you mentioned, and the fact that the deadly effects of cigarettes smoking has been applied wholesale to "tobacco" overall. Most people genuinely believe that smoking a pipe is as dangerous as smoking cigarettes. Cigarettes have made all tobacco "evil" in the public perception. Not to mention the cigarette industry's dirty practices, putting out inferior products with chemicals added to enhance their addictiveness, and designed to be inhaled. As with certain kinds of pharmaceuticals, I think the public is victimized by cigarette makers. The horrific shite that goes into cigarettes is what the FDA should be regulating, not whether a pipe blend has been made prior to 2007 etc. I agree with all of this, but also excuse my ignorance for a minute... Having worked in the pharmaceutical industry, I have had interaction with the fda. In my understanding, they are concerned for the public with respect to what the lay person consumes or applies to their skin and the harm it may or may not cause. They are protecting people who know no better, giving them confidence in the stuff they're consuming. So I can see why they'd be interested in eliquid. I, myself, would like to know that the manufacture of eliquid was above board and isn't going to screw me up over time. Same with tobacco. I'd like to be assured that the dunhill tobacco I put in my pipe hasn't been mixed with horse manure and also might screw me up over time. So I get their involvement, and I get why small companies are affected by this... My own personal beef is with the medical and pharmaceutical industry and their blanket demonising of all tobacco based on the negative effects of cigarette smoking. My insurance lumps it all together, so I could smoke 3 packs a day or 1 pipe a year and be in the same category... That's messed up. How on earth is that fair? But the world has been brainwashed that smoke or tobacco products in all forms are equally as bad. That annoys me no end.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 17:29:26 GMT -5
What I meant was the RYO/cigarette conflation you mentioned, and the fact that the deadly effects of cigarettes smoking has been applied wholesale to "tobacco" overall. Most people genuinely believe that smoking a pipe is as dangerous as smoking cigarettes. Cigarettes have made all tobacco "evil" in the public perception. Not to mention the cigarette industry's dirty practices, putting out inferior products with chemicals added to enhance their addictiveness, and designed to be inhaled. As with certain kinds of pharmaceuticals, I think the public is victimized by cigarette makers. The horrific shite that goes into cigarettes is what the FDA should be regulating, not whether a pipe blend has been made prior to 2007 etc. I agree with all of this, but also excuse my ignorance for a minute... Having worked in the pharmaceutical industry, I have had interaction with the fda. In my understanding, they are concerned for the public with respect to what the lay person consumes or applies to their skin and the harm it may or may not cause. They are protecting people who know no better, giving them confidence in the stuff they're consuming. So I can see why they'd be interested in eliquid. I, myself, would like to know that the manufacture of eliquid was above board and isn't going to screw me up over time. Same with tobacco. I'd like to be assured that the dunhill tobacco I put in my pipe hasn't been mixed with horse manure and also might screw me up over time. So I get their involvement, and I get why small companies are affected by this... My own personal beef is with the medical and pharmaceutical industry and their blanket demonising of all tobacco based on the negative effects of cigarette smoking. My insurance lumps it all together, so I could smoke 3 packs a day or 1 pipe a year and be in the same category... That's messed up. How on earth is that fair? But the world has been brainwashed that smoke or tobacco products in all forms are equally as bad. That annoys me no end. Nothing ignorant there, my friend. You have more experience of the FDA than I do. I'm not in the total anti-FDA camp, and think it's important to regulate food and drugs for the reasons you mentioned. But they have a history not only of overreach (as with premium tobacco) but also incompetence and putting corporations over people. Hence, white bread is allowed to have a certain amount of plaster, peanut butter can have a certain amount of insect matter, frozen vegetables can be partially rotten etc. Not to mention all approving drugs that cause suicidal ideation when you try to come off them, weight-loss drugs that cause anal leakage (sorry!), partially hydrogenated fat, and all kinds of other crap. Rather than truly having public welfare at heart, somebody somewhere is making money off these terrible decisions.
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Post by Cramptholomew on Jul 29, 2018 18:12:41 GMT -5
I agree with all of this, but also excuse my ignorance for a minute... Having worked in the pharmaceutical industry, I have had interaction with the fda. In my understanding, they are concerned for the public with respect to what the lay person consumes or applies to their skin and the harm it may or may not cause. They are protecting people who know no better, giving them confidence in the stuff they're consuming. So I can see why they'd be interested in eliquid. I, myself, would like to know that the manufacture of eliquid was above board and isn't going to screw me up over time. Same with tobacco. I'd like to be assured that the dunhill tobacco I put in my pipe hasn't been mixed with horse manure and also might screw me up over time. So I get their involvement, and I get why small companies are affected by this... My own personal beef is with the medical and pharmaceutical industry and their blanket demonising of all tobacco based on the negative effects of cigarette smoking. My insurance lumps it all together, so I could smoke 3 packs a day or 1 pipe a year and be in the same category... That's messed up. How on earth is that fair? But the world has been brainwashed that smoke or tobacco products in all forms are equally as bad. That annoys me no end. Nothing ignorant there, my friend. You have more experience of the FDA than I do. I'm not in the total anti-FDA camp, and think it's important to regulate food and drugs for the reasons you mentioned. But they have a history not only of overreach (as with premium tobacco) but also incompetence and putting corporations over people. Hence, white bread is allowed to have a certain amount of plaster, peanut butter can have a certain amount of insect matter, frozen vegetables can be partially rotten etc. Not to mention all approving drugs that cause suicidal ideation when you try to come off them, weight-loss drugs that cause anal leakage (sorry!), partially hydrogenated fat, and all kinds of other crap. Rather than truly having public welfare at heart, somebody somewhere is making money off these terrible decisions. This! And, imposing exorbitant product registration costs for these "deeming regulations", which no smaller or boutique business could POSSIBLY afford (read businesses who are small enough to care about quality control). Thus, basically giving the entire market to big tobacco. All this will go for vape liquid as well. I don't ever trust large corporations to do the right thing, or have my welfare in mind.
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Post by unknownpipesmoker on Jul 29, 2018 18:19:06 GMT -5
The problem with the confusion is that some of us are addicted to our pipe and cigarette tobaccos, especially those of us craving stronger blends, more often.
However, while pipes and cigars can be and are a tremendous hobby for many people, cigarettes have almost always been a simple habit. Sure, there are some luxury cigarette brands. But when is the last time you remember meeting a cigarette connoisseur? I'm not sure I've ever even met one.
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