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Post by toshtego on Sept 21, 2021 16:45:28 GMT -5
I have a question.
A friend showed up with his Pa's single shot break open .410. Some store brand I never heard of. Old gun. He is trying unsuccessfully to locate ammunition. WHat I have are modern 3 inch shells. I suspect when this gun was made, 2 1/2 or 2 3/4 was the load. So, my question, can modern 3 inch be fired with reasonable safety in an old .410? The 3 inch chamber fine.
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Post by Ronv69 on Sept 21, 2021 16:59:19 GMT -5
I have a question. A friend showed up with his Pa's single shot break open .410. Some store brand I never heard of. Old gun. He is trying unsuccessfully to locate ammunition. WHat I have are modern 3 inch shells. I suspect when this gun was made, 2 1/2 or 2 3/4 was the load. So, my question, can modern 3 inch be fired with reasonable safety in an old .410? The 3 inch chamber fine. Well, it probably won't kill him, but it will probably screw up the gun. Especially if it's an unknown age/quality. You can shoot 45/70 in it too, but I wouldn't do it. 410 ammo shouldn't be that hard to find. I had some 2.5 inch 410 from shooting a friend's Winchester Model 42 in 1973, but I gave them to a neighbor when we moved. What is likely to happen is instead of opening up, the shell will build to about double pressure and the load will come out as a paper wrapped slug. The action will stretch if it doesn't blow. clearanceoutdoors.com/fiocchi-target-vip-shotshells-410-gauge-2-1-2-1-2oz-8-shot-25-rounds/?variant=566 |
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Post by Plainsman on Sept 21, 2021 17:00:12 GMT -5
If the chamber is really 3" (and not just sloppy) it will probably be OK. I have an old single-barrel from the 1920s that is 2-1/2" and will not chamber 3" shells. A gunsmith exam is always advised however for older guns.
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Post by Ronv69 on Sept 21, 2021 17:06:06 GMT -5
The chamber on a 2.5 inch shotgun will chamber a 3 inch shell, but there isn't space for the shell to open up. Is there no specification on the gun? yyoucan measure it to the chamber taper. a 3 inch shell should have 3.30 or so.
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Post by Plainsman on Sept 21, 2021 20:00:51 GMT -5
The chamber on a 2.5 inch shotgun will chamber a 3 inch shell, but there isn't space for the shell to open up. Is there no specification on the gun? yyoucan measure it to the chamber taper. a 3 inch shell should have 3.30 or so. Maybe YOUR gun will chamber a 3" shell, but mine won't. Nor should any other well-made 410 chambered for 2.5". That's like a 44 Special chambering a 44 Magnum. Not recommended. |
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Post by toshtego on Sept 21, 2021 20:10:16 GMT -5
The chamber on a 2.5 inch shotgun will chamber a 3 inch shell, but there isn't space for the shell to open up. Is there no specification on the gun? yyoucan measure it to the chamber taper. a 3 inch shell should have 3.30 or so. No specification that I can find. The maker or brand name was barely visible. Appeared stout enough. I was surprised the 3 inch shell chambered but that does not mean the gun was meant for that. All the bluing is gone. Must have rusted and then was polished down to steel? Given the age, 2.5 inch ought to be used. Interestingly, it will not chamber a .45 Long Colt but will take a .44 Special. I did not try a .44 magnum. Gunsmith? I sure wish we had one in these parts. |
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Post by william on Sept 21, 2021 20:18:22 GMT -5
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Post by Plainsman on Sept 21, 2021 20:20:05 GMT -5
The chamber on a 2.5 inch shotgun will chamber a 3 inch shell, but there isn't space for the shell to open up. Is there no specification on the gun? yyoucan measure it to the chamber taper. a 3 inch shell should have 3.30 or so. No specification that I can find. The maker or brand name was barely visible. Appeared stout enough. I was surprised the 3 inch shell chambered but that does not mean the gun was meant for that. All the bluing is gone. Must have rusted and then was polished down to steel? Given the age, 2.5 inch ought to be used. Interestingly, it will not chamber a .45 Long Colt but will take a .44 Special. I did not try a .44 magnum. Gunsmith? I sure wish we had one in these parts. Wise decision. And I'd stay away from pistol rounds with that gun. (If the Special fit, so will a Magnum. DEFINITELY avoid!) |
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Post by william on Sept 21, 2021 20:21:06 GMT -5
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Post by toshtego on Sept 21, 2021 20:33:18 GMT -5
From further reading, I see the 3 inch .410 is older than I thought. So, this gun probably can handle them. the three inch chambers. "Excel" brand??? Turns out to be a Monkey Ward house breand: The IJ version is a single barrel made from 1910 to 1935(approx) and it is the exact same gun as the Iver johnson Model 36 except it has the EXCEL name stamped on it.. The Model 36 was made from 1909 to 1957.Jan 25, 2014 -Gunparts.com
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Post by Ronv69 on Sept 21, 2021 21:10:30 GMT -5
The chamber on a 2.5 inch shotgun will chamber a 3 inch shell, but there isn't space for the shell to open up. Is there no specification on the gun? yyoucan measure it to the chamber taper. a 3 inch shell should have 3.30 or so. Maybe YOUR gun will chamber a 3" shell, but mine won't. Nor should any other well-made 410 chambered for 2.5". That's like a 44 Special chambering a 44 Magnum. Not recommended. Shotgun chambers are different than revolver chambers. |
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Post by Ronv69 on Sept 21, 2021 21:17:30 GMT -5
This is about 12 gauge,
But it's the same principle. Sorry for the lack of pictures.
"Shooting 3" Shells in 2 ¾" Shotguns
or How to Try Out Your Major Medical Insurance
You are putting yourself at a major risk of damage to the gun and your face shooting 3" shells in a shotgun with a 2 ¾" chamber (or 3 ½" shells in a 3" chamber). Why not , they seem to fit just fine, I've tried a few and I'm still alive?
2 ¾" shells are typically 2.25" long unfired, 2 ¾" fired. A 2 ¾" chamber shotgun has has a 2 ¾" chamber for the shell, directly followed by a forcing cone, which tapers down to the barrel diameter. As the shell fires, it unfolds filling the full length of the 2 ¾" chamber. (The length and taper of the forcing cone is exaggerated for clarity in these illustrations).
Before firing:
After firing:
If you look below, you'll see an unfired 3" shell is only 2.56" long, so it will fit in the 2 ¾" chamber -- or at least appears to fit.
Unfired:
When you fire it it unfolds to 3", there is no room in the chamber for it to unfold into, so it unfolds into the tapered forcing cone which makes the exit diameter too small. This can make the chamber pressure rise to dangerous levels, You might bulge the barrel, might have it split open and rework your face.
Fired:
Also consider that many 2 ¾" shotguns are not built for the power level of a 3" shell. If you have a shotgun with a 2 ¾" chamber barrel, don't' put a 3" chamber barrel on it unless it has a receiver rated for 3" shells -- the same for putting a 3 ½" chamber barrel on a 3" gun."
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Post by toshtego on Sept 21, 2021 21:23:20 GMT -5
^^^^^ Good to know.
I gave him a handful of 2.5 inch shells. #7 shot and slugs. All I had in that size.
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Post by william on Sept 21, 2021 21:53:29 GMT -5
I would make sure it does not have a Damascus steel barrel. These are not capable of handling the pressures of modern smokeless powder.
Just a cautious old man's 2 cents' worth..
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Post by simnettpratt on Sept 21, 2021 22:00:26 GMT -5
william, I'm afraid your second link also shows no ammo: Out of stock, no backorder.
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Post by toshtego on Sept 21, 2021 22:02:37 GMT -5
I would make sure it does not have a Damascus steel barrel. These are not capable of handling the pressures of modern smokeless powder. Just a cautious old man's 2 cents' worth.. It did not appear to be Damascus Steel. I know what that looks like. |
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Post by Ronv69 on Sept 21, 2021 22:03:13 GMT -5
I've seen 410 in stores recently, but it's not available online. Weird.
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Post by Gypo on Sept 21, 2021 22:30:36 GMT -5
I have a question. A friend showed up with his Pa's single shot break open .410. Some store brand I never heard of. Old gun. He is trying unsuccessfully to locate ammunition. WHat I have are modern 3 inch shells. I suspect when this gun was made, 2 1/2 or 2 3/4 was the load. So, my question, can modern 3 inch be fired with reasonable safety in an old .410? The 3 inch chamber fine. Well, it probably won't kill him, but it will probably screw up the gun. Especially if it's an unknown age/quality. You can shoot 45/70 in it too, but I wouldn't do it. 410 ammo shouldn't be that hard to find. I had some 2.5 inch 410 from shooting a friend's Winchester Model 42 in 1973, but I gave them to a neighbor when we moved. What is likely to happen is instead of opening up, the shell will build to about double pressure and the load will come out as a paper wrapped slug. The action will stretch if it doesn't blow. clearanceoutdoors.com/fiocchi-target-vip-shotshells-410-gauge-2-1-2-1-2oz-8-shot-25-rounds/?variant=566Ron I have a Winchester model 42 takes 3inch it is the sweetest pump 410. Also have single shot Winchester 410 that takes 3inch. Darn 410 shells are more than 12gage low base 2 3/4 now |
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Post by Ronv69 on Sept 21, 2021 22:35:56 GMT -5
Well, it probably won't kill him, but it will probably screw up the gun. Especially if it's an unknown age/quality. You can shoot 45/70 in it too, but I wouldn't do it. 410 ammo shouldn't be that hard to find. I had some 2.5 inch 410 from shooting a friend's Winchester Model 42 in 1973, but I gave them to a neighbor when we moved. What is likely to happen is instead of opening up, the shell will build to about double pressure and the load will come out as a paper wrapped slug. The action will stretch if it doesn't blow. clearanceoutdoors.com/fiocchi-target-vip-shotshells-410-gauge-2-1-2-1-2oz-8-shot-25-rounds/?variant=566Ron I have a Winchester model 42 takes 3inch it is the sweetest pump 410. Also have single shot Winchester 410 that takes 3inch. Darn 410 shells are more than 12gage low base 2 3/4 now This Model 42 was the sweetest shooting gun I ever shot. I tried to buy it but my friend wouldn't sell. I bought 2.5 inch shells for quail. I don't know if it would take 3",but it probably would. They cost a fortune now. |
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Post by Gypo on Sept 21, 2021 23:15:42 GMT -5
Mine is not anything fancy but from the early 60's they are quite valuable now $1000 to $13000 depending on condition and grade.
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Post by sparks on Sept 22, 2021 8:37:56 GMT -5
I love reading threads like this. Growing up around guns, I used to listen to my Uncle talk about this stuff. Never got that deep into it, but it's always amazing the collective knowledge that people have. It's like listening to people rattle off sports stats. Always impressed.
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Post by oldcajun123 on Sept 22, 2021 10:12:54 GMT -5
 Not a gunsmith story about a .410 but a story about my boys .410, when he was 5 I gave hm a Winchester gold trigger Crack Barrel .410. The local News TV had a Shoot your Christmas Gun, they held it at a local park, had kids from 5 to 12 with their shotguns, my Boy Ira was the only 5 yr old. He was small, Mom had to pin his cap with a pin. They had a clay machine and each boy stepped up and shot. They all missed, when my small boy stepped up I heard a tither, Wham, he broke the first, Wham he broke the second , when he broke the third people started clapping and yelling, I saw he was getting nervous, after breaking 5 straight he grew very nervous and missed. They gave him a big applause. That’s my .410 story.
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Post by Ronv69 on Sept 22, 2021 11:11:21 GMT -5
Not a gunsmith story about a .410 but a story about my boys .410, when he was 5 I gave hm a Winchester gold trigger Crack Barrel .410. The local News TV had a Shoot your Christmas Gun, they held it at a local park, had kids from 5 to 12 with their shotguns, my Boy Ira was the only 5 yr old. He was small, Mom had to pin his cap with a pin. They had a clay machine and each boy stepped up and shot. They all missed, when my small boy stepped up I heard a tither, Wham, he broke the first, Wham he broke the second , when he broke the third people started clapping and yelling, I saw he was getting nervous, after breaking 5 straight he grew very nervous and missed. They gave him a big applause. That’s my .410 story. That's great! My first time with the 410 a quail flew out of a bush 5 feet in front of me. I hit him 3 times in about a second. My friend ate what was left. |
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Post by trailboss on Sept 22, 2021 18:07:44 GMT -5
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Post by Ronv69 on Sept 22, 2021 18:29:13 GMT -5
It's very nice. I would get an old Model 12 Winchester and chop the barrel off, that is if I can't get an AA12! 😁 🤠 |
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Post by toshtego on Sept 22, 2021 18:30:10 GMT -5
I bought one in 1992 following the uprising in Los Angeles, where I was living, following the Rodney King related police trials. It is everything they claim it to be. Works great as an auto loader or a pump. Well made. Reliable. |
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Post by toshtego on Sept 22, 2021 18:32:23 GMT -5
Since we seem to have moved on from .410 to 12 Bore. My pick for a replacement is the Winchester Model 1897. I loved mine and wish I still had it. Slam fire is kind of neat when needed. Not often. I got to living with the exposed hammer and never had a problem with it.
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Rattlesnake Daddy
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Post by Rattlesnake Daddy on Sept 22, 2021 18:33:14 GMT -5
I have an M2 Tactical that I have been happy with. It is inertia driven instead of gas, but works quite well. I did swap out the pistol grip for a traditional stock as I couldn't quite get along with it. Overall a nice gun.
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Rattlesnake Daddy
Full Member
Posts: 630
Favorite Pipe: Always changing
Favorite Tobacco: G&H Dark Birds Eye, Bayou Night.
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Post by Rattlesnake Daddy on Sept 22, 2021 18:44:08 GMT -5
...<snip>... "Excel" brand??? Turns out to be a Monkey Ward house breand: The IJ version is a single barrel made from 1910 to 1935(approx) and it is the exact same gun as the Iver johnson Model 36 except it has the EXCEL name stamped on it.. The Model 36 was made from 1909 to 1957.Jan 25, 2014 -Gunparts.com
I have my great uncles 16 gauge "Hercules" sxs from Monkey Ward. All indications are that it was made by Stevens. It was quite common for large companies like Montgomery Ward to contract with the manufacturers to stamp their name on house branded guns. He has a cool piece of history.
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Post by Gypo on Sept 22, 2021 18:44:56 GMT -5
Since we seem to have moved on from .410 to 12 Bore. My pick for a replacement is the Winchester Model 1897. I loved mine and wish I still had it. Slam fire is kind of neat when needed. Not often. I got to living with the exposed hammer and never had a problem with it. Yes I enjoy the 97 also. I got an LAPD riot 97 00buck new springs in all mine except the 1956 97 it is in really nice shape. Got 2 others One is full and one is modified from 1919 and the other one if I remember is also from the 20's. |
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Not a gunsmith story about a .410 but a story about my boys .410, when he was 5 I gave hm a Winchester gold trigger Crack Barrel .410. The local News TV had a Shoot your Christmas Gun, they held it at a local park, had kids from 5 to 12 with their shotguns, my Boy Ira was the only 5 yr old. He was small, Mom had to pin his cap with a pin. They had a clay machine and each boy stepped up and shot. They all missed, when my small boy stepped up I heard a tither, Wham, he broke the first, Wham he broke the second , when he broke the third people started clapping and yelling, I saw he was getting nervous, after breaking 5 straight he grew very nervous and missed. They gave him a big applause. That’s my .410 story.
