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Post by bonanzadriver on Aug 15, 2017 20:14:57 GMT -5
As you guys may have surmised from some of my previous posts, I'm a bit of a tech nerd as well as a gear head and a building tech enthusiast.
One the things I tend to read about on a very regular basis is the convergence of technologies. As luck would have it, Elon Musk seems to be leading the charge in these very fields.
So, I've been thinking a lot here lately about selling our house that we've lived in for the last 12 to 13 years and building an energy efficient (zero net energy or + net energy) house incorporating a solar roof, Geothermal HVAC, whole house storage battery and getting at least one electric car.
I thought I'd poll the crowd here and see if anyone else shares the same interests and whether or not anyone has done this?
dino
p.s. This has nothing to do with minimizing my carbon footprint or saving the earth. I'm not a subscriber to these theories. It's all about practicality and eliminating electric, gas and gasoline bills.
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Post by papipeguy on Aug 16, 2017 8:10:00 GMT -5
Those technologies seem to be getting more sophisticated every day. I'd say the first thing to do is find out if there are any building code restrictions for what you want to do. We have someone in our neighborhood who wanted to install solar panels on his roof. Because they would have faced the street side of their house they were denied a permit. As for electric cars, I have no desire to own one but future technical development and legislation may render that point moot in the future.
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Post by bonanzadriver on Aug 16, 2017 9:50:50 GMT -5
Those technologies seem to be getting more sophisticated every day. I'd say the first thing to do is find out if there are any building code restrictions for what you want to do. We have someone in our neighborhood who wanted to install solar panels on his roof. Because they would have faced the street side of their house they were denied a permit. As for electric cars, I have no desire to own one but future technical development and legislation may render that point moot in the future. I've been doing quite a bit of studying up on things and think that I'll more than likely go with a solar thermal/photo-voltaic hybrid panel, killing 3 birds with one stone. It's essentially a regular pvt panel that has a series of cooling coils mounted on the underside. This keeps the panels cools and increases their efficiency considerably. The side benefit is that you are essentially then getting your hot water for free. Hot water, which depending on where you live can be one of your largest expenses on your utilities. But, with the new Solar Roof introduced by Tesla, I'm rethinking the regular panels and might go this route, just wonder how they would integrate with the solar thermal component. I also read that Ikea is now selling solar panels and storage batteries. Interesting times we're in for sure. As to the street facing panels, surprisingly they're ok here in Pinehurst as long as your house isn't on the Historic Registry. But I'm betting that Musk's new Solar Roof will most likely work on those. www.tesla.com/solarroof
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 15:02:54 GMT -5
For many reasons, it's a potentially productive enterprise.
Design makes or breaks it from both construction and cost/return perspectives. The decision to go on or off grid is a primary consideration. Pros and cons to both. Before considering any design, I would strongly recommend a thorough study of local laws and regulations to avoid potential unexpected costs. For example, existing roadblocks to selling additional electricity production through the grid can affect the cost/return calculation with an on grid system. Conversely, in some jurisdictions, you could also be subjected to basic electrical service charges even if you are completely off grid - Better to know.
Second, the geographical configuration of any unit can also have a significant impact. For example, if a unit which faces east and the residence has a sufficient roof pitch that the north side of the roof doesn't see the sun after 10:00 AM in mid-summer, the square footage of the roof on that side couldn't be considered productive which would have to be overcome in some manner to compensate for both capacity and usage.
Water heating is another consideration. Either a passive or active solar system can be utilized. The primary difference between the two is a pump between the batch collector, water heater and heat exchangers, which requires electricity, is utilized in an active system. The most efficient design would include a water heater being located closest to the area of the house which receives the most direct sunlight and, hence, may not require an additional circulation pump depending on usage requirements. Long proven Asian tubular designs could also be considered.
Ground is the most important element to a successful geothermal HVAC system. Our karst topography here in Kentucky lends itself to such systems particularly well. It's possible even with a small lot because necessary loops can be constructed vertically; however, cost is a primary concern depending on system design. Basically, you're paying the utility costs forward and return on investment increases the longer any system is utilized. That curve would be incredible if any of us had enough money to do this in our 20s or even 30s.
As far as cars, I have a 2007 Prius hybrid (along with a 2016 4WD F150) which I bought new sitting in the driveway. Prius has 106,000 miles and getting better mileage, 44 MPG average, than ever. I'll go electric when it gives up the ghost. The primary problem with that one is if somebody has a typical 200 amp residential electrical service, solid change there's not sufficient remaining capacity for a 220/240 volt charging station even if they have the jack. You'd have to be generating a significant amount of solar electricity to handle that load. I'm sure it could be done; however, I'm equally certain most don't possess the resources to make it happen.
Good luck Dino.
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jitterbugdude
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Post by jitterbugdude on Aug 16, 2017 15:14:29 GMT -5
I'm just now finishing up a building a 7.5kw diesel generator system. I bought a 13 hp Perkins 2 cyl diesel, built a stand and added a 7.5 kw ST generator head. I put a 55 watt solar panel system in my barn to play with because when I retire in 4 years I'll be moving to a 20 acre spread where I plan to be off grid. You have to watch out for electric cars they produce one hell of an electromagnetic field that you happen to sit in while driving. You can easily mitigate that with proper shielding.
As part of my off grid house I also plan to build a system where I have a series of pipes underground that will pull in outside air and return 55 degree F air to my house.
Also have a centrifuge to refine used motor oil and used veggie oil for my diesel generator systems ( have 4 of them).
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Post by bonanzadriver on Aug 16, 2017 15:55:26 GMT -5
For many reasons, it's a potentially productive enterprise. Design makes or breaks it from both construction and cost/return perspectives. The decision to go on or off grid is a primary consideration. Pros and cons to both. Before considering any design, I would strongly recommend a thorough study of local laws and regulations to avoid potential unexpected costs. For example, existing roadblocks to selling additional electricity production through the grid can affect the cost/return calculation with an on grid system. Conversely, in some jurisdictions, you could also be subjected to basic electrical service charges even if you are completely off grid - Better to know. Second, the geographical configuration of any unit can also have a significant impact. For example, if a unit which faces east and the residence has a sufficient roof pitch that the north side of the roof doesn't see the sun after 10:00 AM in mid-summer, the square footage of the roof on that side couldn't be considered productive which would have to be overcome in some manner to compensate for both capacity and usage. Water heating is another consideration. Either a passive or active solar system can be utilized. The primary difference between the two is a pump between the batch collector, water heater and heat exchangers, which requires electricity, is utilized in an active system. The most efficient design would include a water heater being located closest to the area of the house which receives the most direct sunlight and, hence, may not require an additional circulation pump depending on usage requirements. Long proven Asian tubular designs could also be considered. Ground is the most important element to a successful geothermal HVAC system. Our karst topography here in Kentucky lends itself to such systems particularly well. It's possible even with a small lot because necessary loops can be constructed vertically; however, cost is a primary concern depending on system design. Basically, you're paying the utility costs forward and return on investment increases the longer any system is utilized. That curve would be incredible if any of us had enough money to do this in our 20s or even 30s. As far as cars, I have a 2007 Prius hybrid (along with a 2016 4WD F150) which I bought new sitting in the driveway. Prius has 106,000 miles and getting better mileage, 44 MPG average, than ever. I'll go electric when it gives up the ghost. The primary problem with that one is if somebody has a typical 200 amp residential electrical service, solid change there's not sufficient remaining capacity for a 220/240 volt charging station even if they have the jack. You'd have to be generating a significant amount of solar electricity to handle that load. I'm sure it could be done; however, I'm equally certain most don't possess the resources to make it happen. Good luck Dino. Excellent post. Thanks Here's what I'm thinkin on the geothermal...
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Post by bonanzadriver on Aug 16, 2017 15:56:26 GMT -5
I'm just now finishing up a building a 7.5kw diesel generator system. I bought a 13 hp Perkins 2 cyl diesel, built a stand and added a 7.5 kw ST generator head. I put a 55 watt solar panel system in my barn to play with because when I retire in 4 years I'll be moving to a 20 acre spread where I plan to be off grid. You have to watch out for electric cars they produce one hell of an electromagnetic field that you happen to sit in while driving. You can easily mitigate that with proper shielding. As part of my off grid house I also plan to build a system where I have a series of pipes underground that will pull in outside air and return 55 degree F air to my house. Also have a centrifuge to refine used motor oil and used veggie oil for my diesel generator systems ( have 4 of them). JBD, sounds like you're way ahead of the game bud.
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Post by Lady Margaret on Aug 16, 2017 15:57:41 GMT -5
let me know when you get it figured out, i would love to be able to heat and cool my house without astronomical utility bills.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 17:11:19 GMT -5
I should have added, there may also be positive tax implications which could provide savings and increase short term return on investment. It's worth checking.
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jitterbugdude
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Post by jitterbugdude on Aug 17, 2017 8:44:11 GMT -5
I should have added, there may also be positive tax implications which could provide savings and increase short term return on investment. It's worth checking. I tried that venue here in Maryland. Jumped through all the hoops. Conducted the site survey where you count trees, distance from house etc to predict how much shade your panels might get eyc. Got through all the paperwork only to see the last line state something to the effect of :"Must be installed by licensed solar panel guy" Really? So I'm going to pay a guy 4 times more than what it would cost me to install a system myself, just to get 50% back?
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Post by bonanzadriver on Aug 17, 2017 12:24:18 GMT -5
I should have added, there may also be positive tax implications which could provide savings and increase short term return on investment. It's worth checking. I tried that venue here in Maryland. Jumped through all the hoops. Conducted the site survey where you count trees, distance from house etc to predict how much shade your panels might get eyc. Got through all the paperwork only to see the last line state something to the effect of :"Must be installed by licensed solar panel guy" Really? So I'm going to pay a guy 4 times more than what it would cost me to install a system myself, just to get 50% back? Or talk with said "Solar panel Dude", possibly come to an arrangement where you install the panels, he inspects and signs off on them, for a nominal fee. Just thinkin out loud here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 12:32:14 GMT -5
I tried that venue here in Maryland. Jumped through all the hoops. Conducted the site survey where you count trees, distance from house etc to predict how much shade your panels might get eyc. Got through all the paperwork only to see the last line state something to the effect of :"Must be installed by licensed solar panel guy" Really? So I'm going to pay a guy 4 times more than what it would cost me to install a system myself, just to get 50% back? Or talk with said "Solar panel Dude", possibly come to an arrangement where you install the panels, he inspects and signs off on them, for a nominal fee. Just thinkin out loud here. The way it's set up here in KY, for better or worse, individual residential home owners have wide latitude and can pull most permits desired providing they actually perform any related labor; nevertheless, there's an underground of retired individuals who maintain their trade licenses and will also pull permits for a fee. They have to maintain minimum license and insurance requirements established by the commonwealth; consequently, they have a vested interest in work being performed correctly. If a licensed journeyman trades person is caught working on a home owner's permit or none at all, they're subject to both fines and suspension of their license (s); however, if a Master's licensed individual pulls the permit, they no longer have that particular liability.Competitor's turning them in to state officials is the normal downfall. Man it's kind of a multi-layered mix no matter how one looks at it. How much do you want to do yourself? What level will be required of others? How much risk are you willing to accept to save jack? It's all part of the final product. I'd also still be fairly hawkish about checking out possible tax credits and deductions.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 13:08:14 GMT -5
"The most efficient commercially available solar panels on the market today have efficiency ratings as high as 22.5%, whereas the majority of panels range from 14% to 16% efficiency rating. "
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 14:27:29 GMT -5
"The most efficient commercially available solar panels on the market today have efficiency ratings as high as 22.5%, whereas the majority of panels range from 14% to 16% efficiency rating. Interesting but I suspect somewhat dated.
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Post by bonanzadriver on Aug 18, 2017 20:04:17 GMT -5
"The most efficient commercially available solar panels on the market today have efficiency ratings as high as 22.5%, whereas the majority of panels range from 14% to 16% efficiency rating. " Here's a link about the increased efficiency, some 5 to 10% or so.... www.cleanenergyauthority.com/solar-energy-resources/understanding-hybrid-pv-thermal-systems/"Universty in Providence, RI in 2011 installed at the time what was the country's largest hybrid system. Consisting of 162 panels from Sundrum Solar, it generated hot water to heat it's aqautic center's pool while at the same time generating electricity for the building. The Sundrum system. like Echo+, is also a modification of a typical PV panel in that it is a bolt-on addition that circulates fluid underneath. The fluid flowing thru the back of the PV panels keeps the system up to 40 degrees cooler and thereby increases the efficiency of the electricity generation by 5-10%."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 20:10:16 GMT -5
"The most efficient commercially available solar panels on the market today have efficiency ratings as high as 22.5%, whereas the majority of panels range from 14% to 16% efficiency rating. Interesting but I suspect somewhat dated. That is from a 2017 article, or you can Google - solar panel effeciency 2017 news.energysage.com/what-are-the-most-efficient-solar-panels-on-the-market/
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 7:41:17 GMT -5
Good article and thanks for the link. Sunpower X Series panels come in at 22.8% efficiency: us.sunpower.com/solar-panels-technology/x-series-solar-panels/Design features can also potentially improve this level as these specifications are determined utilizing mean statistics under controlled conditions. There are also several prototypes currently in the works which should improve on this level; however, I don't know about their relative cost?
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