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Post by paulllaser on Oct 14, 2017 14:11:20 GMT -5
When I try a new tobacco I usually go for a 2-4 oz quantity to give it a spin. If I like it and will smoke it regularly, I go for it in bulk, if available and store in mason jars. Brian Levine had a discussion of quality of tinned vs. bulk quality of the same blend on the Oct. 3 radio show #264 which taught me something. He gave compelling evidence of the fact that manufacturers will reserve their best quality of tobacco stocks for the batches designated for tins rather than bulk. I always assumed they were exactly the same. Any evidence to the contrary on this? I realize that tinned tobacco will undergo more rapid aging than bulk but I never realized that there is a difference in quality of the tobacco between the two. pipesmagazine.com/blog/radio-talk-show/the-pipes-magazine-radio-show-episode-263/ |
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Post by TwelveAMnTX on Oct 14, 2017 15:01:03 GMT -5
I always assumed that tins were produced with the best looking tobacco & the bulk was what was leftover from the tin run.
I've never noticed a difference between the few blends I've tried in both tin & bulk, except for the price.
The tins did seem to be fresher quality wise, compared to the bulk ... but they both tasted & smoked the same.
The freshness of the bulk can depend on the seller though & how well they keep it stored.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2017 15:10:20 GMT -5
I think there is more parity regarding flakes in this comparison. Other cuts and other formulations show a higher grade of leaf imo, though that doesn't always translate to better.
It can also get silly; tinned 1-Q & BCA as an example.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2017 15:21:51 GMT -5
I asked this in the other forum and was happy when that radio show validated my question. Some bulks are made in other factories. My biggest issue is the handling. If I buy Low Country Strawberry and can't taste the strawberry is it because it was handled poorly?
However, other than a few that are not in bulk, like Five Brothers, I prefer bulk. So I look for a bulk that suits me regardless of if it is in a tin or not.
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Post by GRUMPY on Oct 16, 2017 14:10:02 GMT -5
 Being too freaking cheap, I nearly always buy bulk. If I buy tinned tobacco it's because I want to see what it is and it doesn't come in bulk, or I really like the tin art. Rarely do I see tinned,pouched or tubbed tobacco which also comes in bulk. The one time I've bought bulk which is also pouched and in a plastic tub has been Sutliff Mixture #79. I really prefer the bulk which comes in sealed bags. Not just the zip seal but also heat sealed. The bulk is softer and has darker tobacco than the pouched I've bought. The taste is pretty much the same, but more of it in the bulk. Then too, I have no idea how old the pouched tobacco was either, having gotten it at a gas station or the like when out of tobacco.The bulk seems softer, smoother and more flavorful in the Mixture #79 I've gotten lately. The best point for the Mixture #79 bulk is the wife loves it's aroma.
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Post by trailboss on Oct 16, 2017 14:42:43 GMT -5
I wondered about that also, long ago before Kevin gave me the boot from that forum, in a discussion it was settled law that there was no difference between the bulk and tins....but Generally, Brian never contributes to forum discussions, at least back then he didn't.
Since he has worked for MacBaren and Sutliff (not sure if Sutliff sells bulk), and he has rubbed elbows with all the big players over cocktails, I have to assume Brian has first hand knowledge on how the sausage is made..I think that I can also make the case that with some manufacturers like Gawith, when you buy a 1.5 LB? box of flake, the presentation in my eyes exceeds that of a measely tin, you get a whole 2X4 piece of tobacco with beautiful grain looking at you packed very nicely...I don't think that samed tinned product is superior.
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Post by Baboo on Oct 16, 2017 16:52:32 GMT -5
I've always enjoyed the Peter Stockeby offerings, all of which are only bulk, never tinned. The PS Luxury Bullseye Flake, for example, has always been highly regarded in the shared ranks of Escudo, Davidoff Medallions, Dunhill Deluxe Navy Rolls, etc... IMO, the PS bulk blends share equally in good tinned company.
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sjmiller
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Post by sjmiller on Oct 16, 2017 17:17:27 GMT -5
There are certain blends I smoke on a regular basis that have different tastes when it comes to tins versus bulk. I don’t know if this is because of poor storage where the bulk is concerned or not but the taste differences have turned me off the bulk versions.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 18:55:16 GMT -5
In direct comparison, I prefer CarterHall pouched better than the tub. Fresher and just a hint more cocoa.
In contrast, I find Mixture #79 noticeably better in bulk, than pouch. Haven't had a tub in awhile, so can't judge any difference there, though the last tub I did have, had all the characteristics of the original formulation.
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Post by JimInks on Oct 16, 2017 20:07:12 GMT -5
I wondered about that also, long ago before Kevin gave me the boot from that forum, in a discussion it was settled law that there was no difference between the bulk and tins....but Generally, Brian never contributes to forum discussions, at least back then he didn't. Since he has worked for MacBaren and Sutliff (not sure if Sutliff sells bulk), and he has rubbed elbows with all the big players over cocktails, I have to assume Brian has first hand knowledge on how the sausage is made..I think that I can also make the case that with some manufacturers like Gawith, when you buy a 1.5 LB? box of flake, the presentation in my eyes exceeds that of a measely tin, you get a whole 2X4 piece of tobacco with beautiful grain looking at you packed very nicely...I don't think that samed tinned product is superior. Most of what Sutliff makes is sold in bulk. I also don't believe the best quality tobacco stocks are reserved for tins. That makes no sense. It would mean that manufacturers would have to make two different runs of a great many products, and the expense of that would be high. Sutliff, C&D and Lane don't do that; I know that for certain. Nope. Sorry. It's not likely from an economic stand point. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 21:29:00 GMT -5
Could the cut of the tobacco itself be a determining factor? I have noticed a percentage of bulks are ribbon cut and/or cavendish.
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Post by peteguy on Oct 16, 2017 21:43:27 GMT -5
I would hope there isn't a difference but I smoke from tins. I have had a tin or two of FVF through the years that didn't taste right. I chalked it up to the end of the batch or something happened during the process. If they are processed at different locations then I could see it. Doesn't seem economical to have someone sifting thru batches to pull out the "good stuff". Maybe it is something like my tin experience where if something goes slightly wrong then it is a bulk run. If it falls on the floor I wonder if they have a 5 second rule in place.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 21:52:37 GMT -5
If it's over five seconds you blow on it. That's what I learned in parochial school. I got a lot of gum that way
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Post by PhantomWolf on Oct 16, 2017 21:53:04 GMT -5
I like the tin for trial, but usually spring for bulk when available. The only difference I've noticed has to do with moisture.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 21:56:25 GMT -5
I think the tin nose is better, but that's because it is usually pressed in and the bags that we buy have had air in them. If I can get the flavor I almost prefer bags.
Peter D mentioned Mixture 79 tastes better in bulk. I agree. My feelings on it is that it is either softer or a tad weaker, which makes it perfect for me
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Post by JimInks on Oct 16, 2017 22:35:18 GMT -5
I would hope there isn't a difference but I smoke from tins. I have had a tin or two of FVF through the years that didn't taste right. I chalked it up to the end of the batch or something happened during the process. If they are processed at different locations then I could see it. Doesn't seem economical to have someone sifting thru batches to pull out the "good stuff". Maybe it is something like my tin experience where if something goes slightly wrong then it is a bulk run. If it falls on the floor I wonder if they have a 5 second rule in place. SG occasionally has inconsistencies in their productions. You must remember that bulk doesn't really age because of how it's stored at retailers, usually in plastic bags. But, once a blend is tinned, it starts aging, and that can affect changes in taste. I think that's mostly the difference in what people are noticing. |
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Post by peterd-Buffalo Spirit on Oct 17, 2017 5:37:54 GMT -5
...I prefer bulk tobaccos, although some I buy in tins because that's the only way they come...Like Jim, it makes little sense to make two different runs of the same product, so I don't buy the argument that the tins are better...difference in storage, tins vs. poly bags makes some sense...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2017 11:57:35 GMT -5
I would hope there isn't a difference but I smoke from tins. I have had a tin or two of FVF through the years that didn't taste right. I chalked it up to the end of the batch or something happened during the process. If they are processed at different locations then I could see it. Doesn't seem economical to have someone sifting thru batches to pull out the "good stuff". Maybe it is something like my tin experience where if something goes slightly wrong then it is a bulk run. If it falls on the floor I wonder if they have a 5 second rule in place. SG occasionally has inconsistencies in their productions. You must remember that bulk doesn't really age because of how it's stored at retailers, usually in plastic bags. But, once a blend is tinned, it starts aging, and that can affect changes in taste. I think that's mostly the difference in what people are noticing. 10 year old jarred McClelland #5100 is pretty darn good stuff; however, I'd still give the edge to similar McCranie's Red Ribbon which is tinned by McClelland. It may be possible the finest red VA is used for McC Red Ribbon which would factor into the equation? |
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Post by Darin on Oct 17, 2017 12:03:46 GMT -5
SG occasionally has inconsistencies in their productions. You must remember that bulk doesn't really age because of how it's stored at retailers, usually in plastic bags. But, once a blend is tinned, it starts aging, and that can affect changes in taste. I think that's mostly the difference in what people are noticing. 10 year old jarred McClelland #5100 is pretty darn good stuff; however, I'd still give the edge to similar McCranie's Red Ribbon which is tinned by McClelland. It may be possible the finest red VA is used for McC Red Ribbon which would factor into the equation?
If I remember correctly, #5100 is actually a blend of Red FCV's whereas McC's Red Ribbon / Flake is a single crop each time.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2017 12:17:40 GMT -5
10 year old jarred McClelland #5100 is pretty darn good stuff; however, I'd still give the edge to similar McCranie's Red Ribbon which is tinned by McClelland. It may be possible the finest red VA is used for McC Red Ribbon which would factor into the equation?
If I remember correctly, #5100 is actually a blend of Red FCV's whereas McC's Red Ribbon / Flake is a single crop each time.
As one of the most knowledgeable here working with tobacco, what does that mean? What's the rationale and is it intentional? Is it economically, crafts driven or both? |
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Post by Darin on Oct 17, 2017 12:46:36 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, #5100 is actually a blend of Red FCV's whereas McC's Red Ribbon / Flake is a single crop each time.
As one of the most knowledgeable here working with tobacco, what does that mean? What's the rationale and is it intentional? Is it economically, crafts driven or both?
Well ... I'm not sure about that first part but thank you!
The rational for a single crop tobacco like Red Ribbon is definitely crafts driven as it, by definition, would be a limited run each time. Every bowl that you load will be the same tobacco from the same crop with great consistency. With a blend of Red FCV's, they may not be from the same sources each time or even in the exact same quantities. Therefore, more variation from bag to bag and possibly even bowl to bowl.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2017 13:10:53 GMT -5
As one of the most knowledgeable here working with tobacco, what does that mean? What's the rationale and is it intentional? Is it economically, crafts driven or both?
Well ... I'm not sure about that first part but thank you!
The rational for a single crop tobacco like Red Ribbon is definitely crafts driven as it, by definition, would be a limited run each time. Every bowl that you load will be the same tobacco from the same crop with great consistency. With a blend of Red FCV's, they may not be from the same sources each time or even in the exact same quantities. Therefore, more variation from bag to bag and possibly even bowl to bowl.
Great clarification. Many thanks. |
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Post by Zach on Oct 17, 2017 15:51:37 GMT -5
Bulk and tin are the same thing.
Now I can see them saving the prettiest looking unbroken flakes off the top for tins, but that only makes sense. They'll get all broken up in bulk storage and shipping anyway.
I know the US companies don't do this, and from buying tins and tons of bulk from Gawith Hoggarth, all their tobacco is bulk. The tin is just tinned. They make it all the same and again, maybe sometimes they grab the prettiest flakes for the tins. That only makes sense.
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