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Post by zambini on Jan 25, 2018 1:22:23 GMT -5
With the additions of Vladimir Guerrero, Jim Thome, Jack Morris, and Bud Selig to the Hall of Fame these last couple of years I'm curious to ask everyone the following: 1) Now that Jack Morris has the highest ERA of all HOF pitchers, does that make comparable pitchers with lower ERAs like Curt Schilling and Mike Mussina inevitable? 2) Given that Bud Selig over saw the Lost '94 World Series, the Steroid Era, and Free Agent Contracts climb from a peak of below 100m to over 250m doesn't it seem hypochritical to keep out Marvin Miller, Scott Boras, Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro, and Manny Ramirez? 3) If steroid use isn't/wasn't really an issue, why is Jim Thome in the hall and not Sammy Sosa? 4) Is the BBWAA simply waiting out Edgar Martinez' candidacy in the hopes of making David Ortiz the first proper DH to enter the hall? 5) I really really like Vladimir Guerrero but if he's in should they not also let in Gary Sheffield and Todd Helton?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 1:39:44 GMT -5
I can't answer all your points directly, but I can give my take and hope some answer how I feel:
1) HOF should have split into two entities with the post steroid era being placed in one 2) Pete Rose should be inducted then kicked out for stupidity. I hated Giamatti for what he did, but now Rose has been such an arse I don't care. 3) In the Eighties, Pete Booberoth announced the Rose thing and an Umpire cheating scandal, but said MLB could only handle one, and Rose was it. 3) Selig deserves squat after that stupid whoever wins the All Star Game gets WS home advantage 4) Joe Torre should be in as a player. Look at his stats closely 5) Ken Boyer, maybe HOF. 6) Buck O'Neil, too. 7) Shoeless Joe was involved in two trials. Amazingly in the first big one a document disappeared when needed but turned up again by a Newsman when it benefited Comiskey. Comiskeys were cheap bastards that would place a long distance call and then have the charges reversed. Says my dad. 8) Jack Morris, Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina who? Mr. Gibson. Mr. Gibson. Mr. Gibson 9) BBW used to (still may) stand for Big Beautiful Women. So is BBWAA Alcoholics Anonymous for Big Beautiful Women? 10) Snuffy Stirnweiss Appreciation Day is coming up soon. Let's all remember a guy who died too young
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Post by zambini on Jan 25, 2018 2:09:43 GMT -5
I can't answer all your points directly, but I can give my take and hope some answer how I feel: 1) HOF should have split into two entities with the post steroid era being placed in one 2) Pete Rose should be inducted then kicked out for stupidity. I hated Giamatti for what he did, but now Rose has been such an arse I don't care. 3) In the Eighties, Pete Booberoth announced the Rose thing and an Umpire cheating scandal, but said MLB could only handle one, and Rose was it. 3) Selig deserves squat after that stupid whoever wins the All Star Game gets WS home advantage 4) Joe Torre should be in as a player. Look at his stats closely 5) Ken Boyer, maybe HOF. 6) Buck O'Neil, too. 7) Shoeless Joe was involved in two trials. Amazingly in the first big one a document disappeared when needed but turned up again by a Newsman when it benefited Comiskey. Comiskeys were cheap bastards that would place a long distance call and then have the charges reversed. Says my dad. 8) Jack Morris, Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina who? Mr. Gibson. Mr. Gibson. Mr. Gibson 9) BBW used to (still may) stand for Big Beautiful Women. So is BBWAA Alcoholics Anonymous for Big Beautiful Women? 10) Snuffy Stirnweiss Appreciation Day is coming up soon. Let's all remember a guy who died too young Thanks for making laugh. 2) I totally agree with you with regards to Rose, how is anyone so lacking in self awareness? 4) Of the following group of catchers who would you pick last: Campanella, Cochrine, Torre, Munson, Berra, Dickey. I'm going with Torre. 5-6) O'Neil yes for contribution to the game, Boyer I'd go with maybe no (half the power of Eddie Matthews and too few hits per season) although his defense could play anywhere. 7) I've heard the same about Comiskey and that Shoeless Joe actually had a great 1919 World Series. As I heard it, Jackson was an illliterate who was really able to follow court proceedings nor recognize any document he supposedly signed linking him to the plot. He was named by the gangsters and some of the other players involved as being in on it. 8) I sure hope you mean Bob Gibson and not Kirk Gibson, in any case you've got to get hip with the times! 9) a very polite chuckle 10) You're going to have to tell me more about Snuffy Stirnweiss, the reference went over my head.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 2:37:26 GMT -5
I can't answer all your points directly, but I can give my take and hope some answer how I feel: 1) HOF should have split into two entities with the post steroid era being placed in one 2) Pete Rose should be inducted then kicked out for stupidity. I hated Giamatti for what he did, but now Rose has been such an arse I don't care. 3) In the Eighties, Pete Booberoth announced the Rose thing and an Umpire cheating scandal, but said MLB could only handle one, and Rose was it. 3) Selig deserves squat after that stupid whoever wins the All Star Game gets WS home advantage 4) Joe Torre should be in as a player. Look at his stats closely 5) Ken Boyer, maybe HOF. 6) Buck O'Neil, too. 7) Shoeless Joe was involved in two trials. Amazingly in the first big one a document disappeared when needed but turned up again by a Newsman when it benefited Comiskey. Comiskeys were cheap bastards that would place a long distance call and then have the charges reversed. Says my dad. 8) Jack Morris, Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina who? Mr. Gibson. Mr. Gibson. Mr. Gibson 9) BBW used to (still may) stand for Big Beautiful Women. So is BBWAA Alcoholics Anonymous for Big Beautiful Women? 10) Snuffy Stirnweiss Appreciation Day is coming up soon. Let's all remember a guy who died too young Thanks for making laugh. 2) I totally agree with you with regards to Rose, how is anyone so lacking in self awareness? 4) Of the following group of catchers who would you pick last: Campanella, Cochrine, Torre, Munson, Berra, Dickey. I'm going with Torre. 5-6) O'Neil yes for contribution to the game, Boyer I'd go with maybe no (half the power of Eddie Matthews and too few hits per season) although his defense could play anywhere. 7) I've heard the same about Comiskey and that Shoeless Joe actually had a great 1919 World Series. As I heard it, Jackson was an illliterate who was really able to follow court proceedings nor recognize any document he supposedly signed linking him to the plot. He was named by the gangsters and some of the other players involved as being in on it. 8) I sure hope you mean Bob Gibson and not Kirk Gibson, in any case you've got to get hip with the times! 9) a very polite chuckle 10) You're going to have to tell me more about Snuffy Stirnweiss, the reference went over my head. 4) Torre never wanted to be catcher because he was afraid of the baseball and didn't want to be known as Chicken Catcher Torre (Rim Shot). He did play other positions, and many feel he was left off of HOF because Bench commanded the attention. Also, it had something to do with team popularity and how well the teams he was on did. I would have to go with Torre, myself. I got to see him play often. Berra could sway me. He and Joe Garagiollla were from here. Branch Rickey came to see them. He signed Joe to play for the Cardinals. he told Berra he would never amount to anything. Then Rickey quit the Cards, went to NY, and called Berra up there. Nice plan. Joe's brother Mickey was a wrestling announcer here, as was Joe for a while. Mickey also was host of a long running Italian Resto, Pietro's. Still in business. 8) Bob Gibson was pitching a game where the opposing team stole the signals. Forgot the batter, but he was up against Gibby (I always tell people he lets me call him that, but I've never met him) and was being given the signals. He went back to the dugout after striking out and was asked why he couldn't get a hit knowing the signals. His answer was, "That's still Mr. Gibson up on the mound." 9) Snuffy was a player who subbed for DiMaggio when he went to war. Those were The Snuffster's best couple years. He wound up quitting early due to declining performance. He died way too young in a train wreck. But for those few years he made some forget Joey D. He was a Saint Louis Brown, too. I have a love of them and knew one of the Brownies. Every year I nominate some random day, doesn't matter which, to be Snuffy Stirnweiss day. Just one more aspect of an untrained mind
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Post by herbinedave on Jan 25, 2018 9:54:51 GMT -5
Any talk of the BB HOF is not on who got in, but who didn't
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Post by zambini on Jan 25, 2018 10:47:16 GMT -5
Any talk of the BB HOF is not on who got in, but who didn't But surely who got in shifts standards to highlight who didn't get in. For example Jack Morris and Bud Selig getting in seems like a huge shift in standards that should allow a bunch of others into the hall.
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Post by JimInks on Jan 25, 2018 12:07:42 GMT -5
With the additions of Vladimir Guerrero, Jim Thome, Jack Morris, and Bud Selig to the Hall of Fame these last couple of years I'm curious to ask everyone the following: 1) Now that Jack Morris has the highest ERA of all HOF pitchers, does that make comparable pitchers with lower ERAs like Curt Schilling and Mike Mussina inevitable? 2) Given that Bud Selig over saw the Lost '94 World Series, the Steroid Era, and Free Agent Contracts climb from a peak of below 100m to over 250m doesn't it seem hypochritical to keep out Marvin Miller, Scott Boras, Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro, and Manny Ramirez? 3) If steroid use isn't/wasn't really an issue, why is Jim Thome in the hall and not Sammy Sosa? 4) Is the BBWAA simply waiting out Edgar Martinez' candidacy in the hopes of making David Ortiz the first proper DH to enter the hall? 5) I really really like Vladimir Guerrero but if he's in should they not also let in Gary Sheffield and Todd Helton? 1) Probably. 2) No, it's not hypocritical. Miller should be in. I'm not sure agents are HoF worthy. I don't believe steroid cheats deserve to be in the HoF. Selig, for all his faults - and there are many - oversaw a lot of history, good and bad, and though I personally won't forgive him for the blind eyes he intentionally had during the steroid era, he belongs in the Hall. 3) Sosa was an obvious cheat. Thome was never stained with the taint of steroid talk. 4) No. I doubt the writers think that way. It's just that Martinez did not make the impact Ortiz did, and being stuck in the Northwest where he wasn't seen by the writers much hurts his cause. 5) I think Guerrero is a board line choice. Sheffield is tainted with steroids. Helton is not a HoF. His stats don't quite make it, and without playing half his time in Coors, he was a good hitter, but nothing near a HoF'er. Btw, Joe Torre was not a HoFer based on his stats. I liked him as a player and manager, but his playing career isn't worthy of the Hall.
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Post by zambini on Jan 25, 2018 12:59:37 GMT -5
2) Given that Bud Selig over saw the Lost '94 World Series, the Steroid Era, and Free Agent Contracts climb from a peak of below 100m to over 250m doesn't it seem hypochritical to keep out Marvin Miller, Scott Boras, Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro, and Manny Ramirez? 3) If steroid use isn't/wasn't really an issue, why is Jim Thome in the hall and not Sammy Sosa? 5) I really really like Vladimir Guerrero but if he's in should they not also let in Gary Sheffield and Todd Helton? 2) No, it's not hypocritical. Miller should be in. I'm not sure agents are HoF worthy. I don't believe steroid cheats deserve to be in the HoF. Selig, for all his faults - and there are many - oversaw a lot of history, good and bad, and though I personally won't forgive him for the blind eyes he intentionally had during the steroid era, he belongs in the Hall. 3) Sosa was an obvious cheat. Thome was never stained with the taint of steroid talk. 5) I think Guerrero is a board line choice. Sheffield is tainted with steroids. Helton is not a HoF. Stats don't quite make it, and without playing half his time in Coors, he was a good hitter, but nothing near a HoF'er. I can see what you mean with Selig but it seems like a slippery slope. Given his role and how much MLB benefitted from steroid era, his inclusion implies that you CAN do enough to overcome steroid involvement in order to enter the hall. If that's the case guys like Bonds, Palmeiro, and Clemens that are so over qualified for the hall shouldn't have so much trouble being elected. The same logic could be taken to lower standards even further by considering players plainly superior (Sosa, Sheffield) to recent entrants like Jim Rice.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 13:24:57 GMT -5
It would be total hypocrisy to honor Ortiz and ignore Martinez.
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Post by JimInks on Jan 25, 2018 13:44:58 GMT -5
2) No, it's not hypocritical. Miller should be in. I'm not sure agents are HoF worthy. I don't believe steroid cheats deserve to be in the HoF. Selig, for all his faults - and there are many - oversaw a lot of history, good and bad, and though I personally won't forgive him for the blind eyes he intentionally had during the steroid era, he belongs in the Hall. 3) Sosa was an obvious cheat. Thome was never stained with the taint of steroid talk. 5) I think Guerrero is a board line choice. Sheffield is tainted with steroids. Helton is not a HoF. Stats don't quite make it, and without playing half his time in Coors, he was a good hitter, but nothing near a HoF'er. I can see what you mean with Selig but it seems like a slippery slope. Given his role and how much MLB benefitted from steroid era, his inclusion implies that you CAN do enough to overcome steroid involvement in order to enter the hall. If that's the case guys like Bonds, Palmeiro, and Clemens that are so over qualified for the hall shouldn't have so much trouble being elected. The same logic could be taken to lower standards even further by considering players plainly superior (Sosa, Sheffield) to recent entrants like Jim Rice. If he had encouraged steroid use, I might agree. Of course, it can be argued that by pretending nothing was happening, he did covertly encourage it because money was what everybody connected to the game cared about during that time. That, and nothing else, otherwise so much cheating wouldn't have gone on. The Player's Union at that time was run by greedy scum who tacitly decided steroid use was good for them. Their rep, Donald Fehr, is on my blacklist of evil in the sport because of it. Personally, I wouldn't have voted for Selig because of the issue, but that is an emotional response on my part. I never thought Jim Rice was a Hall of Famer. I believe in what Johnny Bench said: The Hall of Fame is for the great, not the near great." The standards are lower now than they were many years back. And with steroid users like Piazza already in the Hall, I've lost a lot of interest in the HoF.
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Post by herbinedave on Jan 25, 2018 15:34:42 GMT -5
Any talk of the BB HOF is not on who got in, but who didn't But surely who got in shifts standards to highlight who didn't get in. For example Jack Morris and Bud Selig getting in seems like a huge shift in standards that should allow a bunch of others into the hall. The Veteran's Committee voted Morris in and the BBWAA voted in the four yesterday. In my eyes, including Trammell, all belong. No sense arguing the what ifs and how comes!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 15:54:24 GMT -5
I didn't look up fielding, but Chicken Catcher Torre's numbers are way better than Trammell's. More homers. About the same hits -20, more RBI's done in less years
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Post by zambini on Jan 25, 2018 17:28:17 GMT -5
I didn't look up fielding, but Chicken Catcher Torre's numbers are way better than Trammell's. More homers. About the same hits -20, more RBI's done in less years herbinedave might disagree but it kind of feels to me that no one from the '84 Tigers was really hallworthy and that's not to say that it wasn't a very good team; I can only imagine that people will now reargue in favor of Darrell Evans and Lou Whitaker! I'd wager that part of Tramell's stellar defense was due to Whitaker's own stellar defense.
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Post by Ronv69 on Jan 25, 2018 18:42:00 GMT -5
I don't know about the HOF, but I just got 2 official MLB Astros T-shirts for half price!
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Post by puffy on Jan 25, 2018 18:47:29 GMT -5
If you go back and look into the personal lives of some of those in the Hall they weren't exactly altar boys.To me though the question should be..Did a player do something to effect the game that he wasn't supposed to do..All I will say about Rose is he was a heck of a player.In my opinion one of the best ever.
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Post by zambini on Jan 26, 2018 1:05:18 GMT -5
If you go back and look into the personal lives of some of those in the Hall they weren't exactly altar boys.To me though the question should be..Did a player do something to effect the game that he wasn't supposed to do..All I will say about Rose is he was a heck of a player.In my opinion one of the best ever. I get your point but, "Did a player do something to effect the game that he wasn't supposed to do" sure hides a lot of sins (Anson was a notorious racist, Cobb purposely injured players, Raines played with vials of coke on his person, a bunch of guys were on amphetamines for years, McGwire was on anabolic steroids before they were banned, etc.). Do you think that if Manfred were replaced as comissioner, Rose gets back on his apology tour, and sports betting becomes more common place that there's a chance they'll let Rose be considered for the hall prior to his death?
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Post by JimInks on Jan 26, 2018 4:01:04 GMT -5
I can't see Rose ever coming back to the game, nor should he be allowed in the Hall of Fame. He broke one of the few rules baseball had at the time: No gambling at the risk of life time banishment. Rose bet as a player, and then as a manager. He repeatedly lied about in depositions and to the public. He potentially put his pitchers in danger of being hurt by using them in games he had bet on his team to win. He cheated the game, the players, the fans, coaches, managers, etc. He knew what he was doing was wrong, knew he risked life time banishment, and thought he was above the game. He lied to every MLB commissioner from Giamatti on. Even when Manfred agreed to talk to him, Rose lied repeatedly, and finally, faced with absolute evidence, had to admit he was still betting on baseball. Great player, lousy human being.
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Post by herbinedave on Jan 26, 2018 8:50:41 GMT -5
I can't see Rose ever coming back to the game, nor should he be allowed in the Hall of Fame. He broke one of the few rules baseball had at the time: No gambling at the risk of life time banishment. Rose bet as a player, and then as a manager. He repeatedly lied about in depositions and to the public. He potentially put his pitchers in danger of being hurt by using them in games he had bet on his team to win. He cheated the game, the players, the fans, coaches, managers, etc. He knew what he was doing was wrong, knew he risked life time banishment, and thought he was above the game. He lied to every MLB commissioner from Giamatti on. Even when Manfred agreed to talk to him, Rose lied repeatedly, and finally, faced with absolute evidence, had to admit he was still betting on baseball. Great player, lousy human being. Years ago I thought Rose might get in after he passed on. I no longer think that way.
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Post by Lady Margaret on Jan 27, 2018 1:08:45 GMT -5
I don't know about the HOF, but I just got 2 official MLB Astros T-shirts for half price!
and I saved 15% by switching to GEICO. LOVE!
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Post by JimInks on Jan 27, 2018 3:11:07 GMT -5
I don't know about the HOF, but I just got 2 official MLB Astros T-shirts for half price!
and I saved 15% by switching to GEICO. LOVE!
If they gave us that discount at Smoking Pipes, more people would switch over!
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Post by Lady Margaret on Jan 27, 2018 18:53:59 GMT -5
and I saved 15% by switching to GEICO. LOVE!
If they gave us that discount at Smoking Pipes, more people would switch over!
oh yes indeed!
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