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Post by Dramatwist on Feb 15, 2018 1:23:46 GMT -5
I'm sorry to disagree with the prevalent view point, but the scalping does bother me because I don't think it's good for the long term future of the industry. The reason why these tobaccos are produced has to do with maximizing the profits of the manufacturer, mixer, grower, and seller. Resellers are introducing themselves in the worst way by creating an artificial scarcity that only serves to raise prices on these blends. If the industry is to grow, consumers should be willing to pay more to those responsible for actually producing the blends we like and not the resellers whose actions contribute little to our smoking experience. I believe that the best way for the producers to regain control of the marketing of their product is to simply raise the retail price to near what the resellers are charging. This will motivate the producers to make more of these successful blends and raise the efficiency of the ordinary distribution channels to place product and consumer together. ...thoughtful comments, zambini. Thanks. |
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sablebrush52
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Post by sablebrush52 on Feb 15, 2018 2:07:18 GMT -5
I do as I please:  That's all you've got?  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 2:23:33 GMT -5
Interesting points, zambini and I agree in theory. But Germain is a small, eccentric family businesses that has barely expanded since inception in 1820. Like other blenders, they don't grow their own leaf so I'm not sure how much influence they'd have over the chain of supply and demand. I'd happily pay more for blends in general, though, if I knew it was benefiting local growers rather than STG, for example. |
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Post by Dramatwist on Feb 15, 2018 2:43:35 GMT -5
Interesting points, zambini and I agree in theory. But Germain is a small, eccentric family businesses that has barely expanded since inception in 1820. Like other blenders, they don't grow their own leaf so I'm not sure how much influence they'd have over the chain of supply and demand. I'd happily pay more for blends in general, though, if I knew it was benefiting local growers rather than STG, for example. ...quite often, it is the small business that comes up with something that transcends the ordinary. It must be difficult to have an eager market for a product, and find yourself unable to meet demand. |
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sablebrush52
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Favorite Pipe: Barling
Favorite Tobacco: whatever is in it
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Post by sablebrush52 on Feb 15, 2018 2:47:32 GMT -5
I'm sorry to disagree with the prevalent view point, but the scalping does bother me because I don't think it's good for the long term future of the industry. The reason why these tobaccos are produced has to do with maximizing the profits of the manufacturer, mixer, grower, and seller. Resellers are introducing themselves in the worst way by creating an artificial scarcity that only serves to raise prices on these blends. If the industry is to grow, consumers should be willing to pay more to those responsible for actually producing the blends we like and not the resellers whose actions contribute little to our smoking experience. I believe that the best way for the producers to regain control of the marketing of their product is to simply raise the retail price to near what the resellers are charging. This will motivate the producers to make more of these successful blends and raise the efficiency of the ordinary distribution channels to place product and consumer together. I see a couple of problems with this. Raising the price to scalper levels will make more blends financially unobtainable for more smokers. This will not bring about growth, more likely it will bring about the opposite. I do agree that growers need to make more on their crops. The lousy prices that they get as the result of a highly buyer controlled market are causing more and more growers to switch to other crops. Small batch blenders like Germain's will not increase the production of their blends. They're producing at their capacity on ancient machinery by which these blends are the result. Change the methodology and the pipeline and the results will change. Simply put, the problem, if it is a problem, with the prices on the secondary market is that it's a self inflicted wound. If people refused to pay high prices for unobtainium, scalpers wouldn't be selling it. But as people are willing to pay these prices the scalping will continue. It's not like Esoterica is really any better than all other blends. Some of them are very good. Some of them are really boring. Most of these blends were developed by Germain's as private label blends that they already had in their catalog long before the Esoterica line was launched. These weren't blends that Germain's produced under their own name. There are a lot of great blends available at a reasonable price. They just haven't become the object of pipe smokers' OCD. People always think that scarce must be better. There's no real logic to it other than the ego boost of having something that others want, or the self inflicted sense of deprivation from wanting what others have. It's no different than the obsession with Dunhill pipes. People bought into the marketing, convincing themselves that Dunhill pipes were better than all others and merited paying much higher prices. Dunhill made some great pipes. So did many others, whose prices were a fraction of the Dunhill pricing. A former girlfriend worked in the interior design business. She represented several manufacturers of textiles for commercial use, like carpeting and draperies for hotels and public spaces. The manufacturers would produce their products under several labels. With one label the material would be $20 a yard. With another label, the same product would be $50 dollars a yard. And with yet another label, that same product would be $100 a yard. Same textile from the same factory, just a different label, and they all sold because some buyers thought that they were getting something different for the extra dollars. They were buying brand, not product, and it was fascinating to me that this actually worked. It's no different with pipes and tobaccos. |
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Post by Dramatwist on Feb 15, 2018 2:53:15 GMT -5
I'm sorry to disagree with the prevalent view point, but the scalping does bother me because I don't think it's good for the long term future of the industry. The reason why these tobaccos are produced has to do with maximizing the profits of the manufacturer, mixer, grower, and seller. Resellers are introducing themselves in the worst way by creating an artificial scarcity that only serves to raise prices on these blends. If the industry is to grow, consumers should be willing to pay more to those responsible for actually producing the blends we like and not the resellers whose actions contribute little to our smoking experience. I believe that the best way for the producers to regain control of the marketing of their product is to simply raise the retail price to near what the resellers are charging. This will motivate the producers to make more of these successful blends and raise the efficiency of the ordinary distribution channels to place product and consumer together. I see a couple of problems with this. Raising the price to scalper levels will make more blends financially unobtainable for more smokers. This will not bring about growth, more likely it will bring about the opposite. I do agree that growers need to make more on their crops. The lousy prices that they get as the result of a highly buyer controlled market are causing more and more growers to switch to other crops. Small batch blenders like Germain's will not increase the production of their blends. They're producing at their capacity on ancient machinery by which these blends are the result. Change the methodology and the pipeline and the results will change. Simply put, the problem, if it is a problem, with the prices on the secondary market is that it's a self inflicted wound. If people refused to pay high prices for unobtainium, scalpers wouldn't be selling it. But as people are willing to pay these prices the scalping will continue. It's not like Esoterica is really any better than all other blends. Some of them are very good. Some of them are really boring. Most of these blends were developed by Germain's as private label blends that they already had in their catalog long before the Esoterica line was launched. These weren't blends that Germain's produced under the own name. There are a lot of great blends available at a reasonable price. They just haven't become the object of pipe smoker's OCD. People always think that scarce must be better. There's no real logic to it other than the ego boost of having something that others want, or the self inflicted sense of deprivation from wanting what others have. It's no different than the obsession with Dunhill pipes. People bought into the marketing, convincing themselves that Dunhill pipes were better than any others and merited paying much higher prices. Dunhill made some great pipes. So did many others, whose prices were a fraction of the Dunhill pricing. A former girlfriend worked in the interior design business. She represented several manufacturers of textiles for commercial use, like carpeting and draperies for hotels and public spaces. The manufacturers would produce their products under several labels. With one label the material would be $20 a yard. With another label, the same product would be $50 dollars a yard. And with yet another label, that same product would be $100 a yard. Same textile from the same factory, just a different label, and they all sold because some buyers thought that they were getting something different for the extra dollars. They were buying brand, not product, and it was fascinating to me that this actually worked. It's no different with pipes and tobaccos. Great post, and I agree with many of your points, sablebrush52 (you must be a painter?) For myself, however and for whatever reason, Penzance is the best tobacco I've ever smoked. So, I get it when and where I can. I like other tobaccos, but this one... speaks to me. |
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sablebrush52
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Posts: 903
Favorite Pipe: Barling
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Post by sablebrush52 on Feb 15, 2018 2:59:54 GMT -5
I see a couple of problems with this. Raising the price to scalper levels will make more blends financially unobtainable for more smokers. This will not bring about growth, more likely it will bring about the opposite. I do agree that growers need to make more on their crops. The lousy prices that they get as the result of a highly buyer controlled market are causing more and more growers to switch to other crops. Small batch blenders like Germain's will not increase the production of their blends. They're producing at their capacity on ancient machinery by which these blends are the result. Change the methodology and the pipeline and the results will change. Simply put, the problem, if it is a problem, with the prices on the secondary market is that it's a self inflicted wound. If people refused to pay high prices for unobtainium, scalpers wouldn't be selling it. But as people are willing to pay these prices the scalping will continue. It's not like Esoterica is really any better than all other blends. Some of them are very good. Some of them are really boring. Most of these blends were developed by Germain's as private label blends that they already had in their catalog long before the Esoterica line was launched. These weren't blends that Germain's produced under the own name. There are a lot of great blends available at a reasonable price. They just haven't become the object of pipe smoker's OCD. People always think that scarce must be better. There's no real logic to it other than the ego boost of having something that others want, or the self inflicted sense of deprivation from wanting what others have. It's no different than the obsession with Dunhill pipes. People bought into the marketing, convincing themselves that Dunhill pipes were better than any others and merited paying much higher prices. Dunhill made some great pipes. So did many others, whose prices were a fraction of the Dunhill pricing. A former girlfriend worked in the interior design business. She represented several manufacturers of textiles for commercial use, like carpeting and draperies for hotels and public spaces. The manufacturers would produce their products under several labels. With one label the material would be $20 a yard. With another label, the same product would be $50 dollars a yard. And with yet another label, that same product would be $100 a yard. Same textile from the same factory, just a different label, and they all sold because some buyers thought that they were getting something different for the extra dollars. They were buying brand, not product, and it was fascinating to me that this actually worked. It's no different with pipes and tobaccos. Great post, and I agree with many of your points, sablebrush52 (you must be a painter?) For myself, however and for whatever reason, Penzance is the best tobacco I've ever smoked. So, I get it when and where I can. I like other tobaccos, but this one... speaks to me. And absolutely buy what you like. I've stocked several Esoterica blends that I like. And I've stocked others that I like that aren't "star" blends, but to me, are every bit as good, and in some instances much better. And I have spent some good money for vintage tins of blends that I particularly like. But I have a limit beyond which I won't go. If I had to pay scalpers prices for any Esoterica blend it would be no way José! And if others feel differently so be it. |
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Post by Dramatwist on Feb 15, 2018 3:04:28 GMT -5
Great post, and I agree with many of your points, sablebrush52 (you must be a painter?) For myself, however and for whatever reason, Penzance is the best tobacco I've ever smoked. So, I get it when and where I can. I like other tobaccos, but this one... speaks to me. And absolutely buy what you like. I've stocked several Esoterica blends that I like. And I've stocked others that I like that aren't "star" blends, but to me, are every bit as good, and in some instances much better. And I have spent some good money for vintage tins of blends that I particularly like. But I have a limit beyond which I won't go. If I had to pay scalpers prices for any Esoterica blend it would be no way José! And if others feel differently so be it. I think we're on the same page... there IS a limit on what I would pay for Penzance. Also, I am very fond of several others. I have been smoking a pipe long enough to witness the disappearance of more than one tobacco that I loved. |
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Post by Wolfman on Feb 15, 2018 6:34:11 GMT -5
I do as I please: You're my hero! |
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Post by herbinedave on Feb 15, 2018 10:33:32 GMT -5
Most of the Penzance and Stonehaven I have was purchased at retail in 2011-12. I have purchase Germain's Rich Dark Flake and paid English retail and shipping. Al of it in jars as there was the great pin hole travesty several years back. Is this something I smoke everyday? I answer no to that. I do confess to liking Stonehaven and Rich Dark Flake very much. When I get my arse in gear, stuck in a winter wilderness, I will do another give away!
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Post by peteguy on Feb 15, 2018 10:47:48 GMT -5
I see what you did here. The stock market is so volatile and putting your retirement money under your mattress doesn't have a large enough return. I do as I please: |
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Post by Darin on Feb 15, 2018 10:50:11 GMT -5
Good stuff ... I prefer the RDF and have jarred up a good amount for aging. |
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Post by zambini on Feb 15, 2018 11:14:32 GMT -5
1) I see a couple of problems with this. Raising the price to scalper levels will make more blends financially unobtainable for more smokers. This will not bring about growth, more likely it will bring about the opposite. I do agree that growers need to make more on their crops. The lousy prices that they get as the result of a highly buyer controlled market are causing more and more growers to switch to other crops. 2) Small batch blenders like Germain's will not increase the production of their blends. They're producing at their capacity on ancient machinery by which these blends are the result. Change the methodology and the pipeline and the results will change. Simply put, the problem, if it is a problem, with the prices on the secondary market is that it's a self inflicted wound. If people refused to pay high prices for unobtainium, scalpers wouldn't be selling it. But as people are willing to pay these prices the scalping will continue. 3) It's not like Esoterica is really any better than all other blends. Some of them are very good. Some of them are really boring. Most of these blends were developed by Germain's as private label blends that they already had in their catalog long before the Esoterica line was launched. These weren't blends that Germain's produced under their own name. 4) There are a lot of great blends available at a reasonable price. They just haven't become the object of pipe smokers' OCD. People always think that scarce must be better. There's no real logic to it other than the ego boost of having something that others want, or the self inflicted sense of deprivation from wanting what others have. It's no different than the obsession with Dunhill pipes. People bought into the marketing, convincing themselves that Dunhill pipes were better than all others and merited paying much higher prices. Dunhill made some great pipes. So did many others, whose prices were a fraction of the Dunhill pricing. 5) A former girlfriend worked in the interior design business. She represented several manufacturers of textiles for commercial use, like carpeting and draperies for hotels and public spaces. The manufacturers would produce their products under several labels. With one label the material would be $20 a yard. With another label, the same product would be $50 dollars a yard. And with yet another label, that same product would be $100 a yard. Same textile from the same factory, just a different label, and they all sold because some buyers thought that they were getting something different for the extra dollars. They were buying brand, not product, and it was fascinating to me that this actually worked. It's no different with pipes and tobaccos. I labelled your paragraphs for easier reference. 1) I agree that raising prices will theoretically reduce demand for them, 'star blends' should be understood as a premium market that justify higher prices based on expected quality. At the same time, raising prices is a more democratic filter than relying on the insider knowledge of resellers which can appear to 'corrupt' the market by creating artificial scarcity. I find the recent example of Smokingpipes restocking Rattray's significant in that they didn't generally announce it, didn't restock the whole product line at once, and even restocked Exotic Orange a couple of times in small amounts in order to ward off resellers. Pipe tobacco is, in general, too cheap to deter resellers and to deter its reaching the intended market. 2) I think this is an unfair assumption. Germain's may be willing to expand production if the incentive was higher as would the tobacco growers that supply them. Further more, their own employees may be willing to set up their own companies if the incentive was higher and the supply existed or 'match' blends may be produced if the incentive was higher. One could even argue that 'star blends' could drive the market tastes to produce similar or better blends if the incentives were high enough. 3) I don't believe this is an issue. The hobby has developed taste makers whose opinions are respected at several levels, further more product failure (as measured by sales) is a valid way to gauge the market's perception of quality. I think STG is actually really good at marketing its several lines without necessarily confusing customers, surely 'star blend' makers can do the same. 4) Again, the problem isn't scarcity per se; the problem is the artificial scarcity created by resellers and the frustration this creates with the manufacturer and their distribution channels. I mean, resellers don't even age the blends as the tobacco and packaging does it for them. Their advantage is that as they aren't tied to the production cycle they can unload a trickle at a time and at the most opportune time in comparison to the manufacturer. 5) This is a marketing issue that is attended not at the level of manufacturers but at the level of taste makers and smokers. If anything those who've never smoked a blend have more of a reason to doubt its quality than those who've smoked and know what's what. In most industries 'star products' not just drive tastes and market trends but also market growth. By selling these blends at prices that feed the resellers, tobacco companies are doing the consumer a disservice by not growing the market. So why would the tobacco companies do this? My guess is in the case of the smaller houses, the production cycle requieres an initial outlay that has the potential to create serious cashflow problems endangering the company. Once produced, the blender is forced to flood the market in an effort to raise cash quickly enough to stave off said cashflow problems. Flooding the market means that prices must be lowered as the demand is not there at a higher price in that short period of time in which to recuperate costs. I can imagine that a similar situation ensues with distributers. Secondary considerations could include the pull of tradition (we've never sold a blend for so much), a misguided attempt to reach price conscious buyers, or a lack of warehouse space (lack of financing). |
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sablebrush52
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Post by sablebrush52 on Feb 15, 2018 13:17:16 GMT -5
1) I see a couple of problems with this. Raising the price to scalper levels will make more blends financially unobtainable for more smokers. This will not bring about growth, more likely it will bring about the opposite. I do agree that growers need to make more on their crops. The lousy prices that they get as the result of a highly buyer controlled market are causing more and more growers to switch to other crops. 2) Small batch blenders like Germain's will not increase the production of their blends. They're producing at their capacity on ancient machinery by which these blends are the result. Change the methodology and the pipeline and the results will change. Simply put, the problem, if it is a problem, with the prices on the secondary market is that it's a self inflicted wound. If people refused to pay high prices for unobtainium, scalpers wouldn't be selling it. But as people are willing to pay these prices the scalping will continue. 3) It's not like Esoterica is really any better than all other blends. Some of them are very good. Some of them are really boring. Most of these blends were developed by Germain's as private label blends that they already had in their catalog long before the Esoterica line was launched. These weren't blends that Germain's produced under their own name. 4) There are a lot of great blends available at a reasonable price. They just haven't become the object of pipe smokers' OCD. People always think that scarce must be better. There's no real logic to it other than the ego boost of having something that others want, or the self inflicted sense of deprivation from wanting what others have. It's no different than the obsession with Dunhill pipes. People bought into the marketing, convincing themselves that Dunhill pipes were better than all others and merited paying much higher prices. Dunhill made some great pipes. So did many others, whose prices were a fraction of the Dunhill pricing. 5) A former girlfriend worked in the interior design business. She represented several manufacturers of textiles for commercial use, like carpeting and draperies for hotels and public spaces. The manufacturers would produce their products under several labels. With one label the material would be $20 a yard. With another label, the same product would be $50 dollars a yard. And with yet another label, that same product would be $100 a yard. Same textile from the same factory, just a different label, and they all sold because some buyers thought that they were getting something different for the extra dollars. They were buying brand, not product, and it was fascinating to me that this actually worked. It's no different with pipes and tobaccos. I labelled your paragraphs for easier reference. 1) I agree that raising prices will theoretically reduce demand for them, 'star blends' should be understood as a premium market that justify higher prices based on expected quality. At the same time, raising prices is a more democratic filter than relying on the insider knowledge of resellers which can appear to 'corrupt' the market by creating artificial scarcity. I find the recent example of Smokingpipes restocking Rattray's significant in that they didn't generally announce it, didn't restock the whole product line at once, and even restocked Exotic Orange a couple of times in small amounts in order to ward off resellers. Pipe tobacco is, in general, too cheap to deter resellers and to deter its reaching the intended market. 2) I think this is an unfair assumption. Germain's may be willing to expand production if the incentive was higher as would the tobacco growers that supply them. Further more, their own employees may be willing to set up their own companies if the incentive was higher and the supply existed or 'match' blends may be produced if the incentive was higher. One could even argue that 'star blends' could drive the market tastes to produce similar or better blends if the incentives were high enough. 3) I don't believe this is an issue. The hobby has developed taste makers whose opinions are respected at several levels, further more product failure (as measured by sales) is a valid way to gauge the market's perception of quality. I think STG is actually really good at marketing its several lines without necessarily confusing customers, surely 'star blend' makers can do the same. 4) Again, the problem isn't scarcity per se; the problem is the artificial scarcity created by resellers and the frustration this creates with the manufacturer and their distribution channels. I mean, resellers don't even age the blends as the tobacco and packaging does it for them. Their advantage is that as they aren't tied to the production cycle they can unload a trickle at a time and at the most opportune time in comparison to the manufacturer. 5) This is a marketing issue that is attended not at the level of manufacturers but at the level of taste makers and smokers. If anything those who've never smoked a blend have more of a reason to doubt its quality than those who've smoked and know what's what. In most industries 'star products' not just drive tastes and market trends but also market growth. By selling these blends at prices that feed the resellers, tobacco companies are doing the consumer a disservice by not growing the market. So why would the tobacco companies do this? My guess is in the case of the smaller houses, the production cycle requieres an initial outlay that has the potential to create serious cashflow problems endangering the company. Once produced, the blender is forced to flood the market in an effort to raise cash quickly enough to stave off said cashflow problems. Flooding the market means that prices must be lowered as the demand is not there at a higher price in that short period of time in which to recuperate costs. I can imagine that a similar situation ensues with distributers. Secondary considerations could include the pull of tradition (we've never sold a blend for so much), a misguided attempt to reach price conscious buyers, or a lack of warehouse space (lack of financing). Kind of you to edit my copy for me. So let's go over this point by point. 1.Raising prices isn't a "democratic" filter, it's a plutocratic filter. Ultimately it will further marginalize an already niche market. The Esoterica blends aren't premium blends, they're bulk blends, priced at bulk prices. And at the risk of being seen as elitist (pathetic isn't it? An "elitist" in such a niche little world. The very meaning of nothingness.), a lot of smokers act like lemmings. They follow where others tell them to go. There's a wide world of blends to explore that they ignore in pursuit of what they're told they should want to pursue. Online sellers do what they can to limit hoarding by setting limits on purchases. So that measure is already in effect. Insider knowledge isn't the solution. Being a good client to B&M's before they wink out, is the solution. People run to the few online dealers because their prices are lower than most B&M's. As a result they have lost that connection that used to be a mainstay in the smoking experience, the connection between the customer and the tobacconist. What will happen when Internet sales are banned and your friendly B&M has shuttered because you pursued price over relationships? I've been required to cultivate relationships with B&M's that are distant because my local ones have either closed or stopped carrying much in the way of pipes and pipe tobaccos. 2. It's not an assumption. German's has responded to this. They're happy doing what they do the way they do it. They're not stupid. They're aware of the clamor for their product. Not everyone is motivated by making as much money as possible before they die. Some are motivated by quality. Anyone wanting to set up commercial manufacturing in this environment has my respect for spitting into a gale. There is little financial incentive in doing this. 3. Taste makers come and go. Taste is subjective. One of the ongoing jokes I've had with several "taste makers" is pushing some really mediocre blend on the community by launching a campaign of praise and creating a stampede for our amusement. This is called marketing. I haven't actually participated in any such schemes, but it wouldn't surprise me if others have. For the record, this has nothing to to with jiminks. That guy is incorruptible. But, I know a lot of people in the hobby, some of whom think this would be a hoot. 4. Hoarding for resale is a problem, but it's one that is created by the buyers, not the hoarders. If buyers weren't buying at exorbitant prices, there would be no financial incentive to hoard, and no one would be hoarding except the nut jobs. Even if there was no hoarding, demand for certain highly touted blends far outstrips supply. As for Hoarders timing their unloading, how exactly would they predict this? Part of the thrill of being a pipe smoker in today's world is living with the uncertainty of the availability of blends. What I see happening is that a shipment comes in, resellers buy, and sell it for an immediate flip. There doesn't seem to be much complexity. 5. Manufacturers do marketing and influence "taste makers" to the extent that we have any in the hobby. So they all contribute to the perception that others have regarding what is desirable. And make no mistake, subjective perception is the target of all that marketing. Over the years I've worked on, perhaps, 200+ commercials, and I've witnessed the mindset of marketers. It's all about creating the perception of a desirability for the message being sent, regardless of reality. Surprisingly, marketing tends to stifle creativity and individuality in pursuit of idealized sameness and large acceptance. A LOT of blends go under different names with different labels on them and sell for different prices. There are something like 26 or more versions of 1Q selling in tins at tin prices. As for your conclusions. I respectfully disagree. The pricing of "star", let's call them elite, blends isn't the problem. The market for secondary sellers is the problem and it is created by buyers. Putting the price of Stonehaven at $200 for a 2oz tin may take much of the profit out of the hands of resellers, but it will also take Stonehaven out of the hands of all but the wealthiest smokers, thus this is a "plutocratic" and perhaps elitist solution. And it still won't work because those buyers, most of them not in the US, cash rich, and unable to buy these blends any other way, will pay $400 for that $200 tin. Basically, there is no solution to the "problem" of a secondary market, except to close down marketplaces, and that won't happen. Your suppositions regarding the level of stock that producers keep on hand ignores industry practices. Many blends are made from leaf grown over a number of years. This is done to reduce the variation in tobacco flavor that occurs from year to year. So many commercial blends are homogenized from crops for several years that are blended together. That is factored into the company's operating budget, as is the pre-release aging that the blends undergo before being tinned and released. But low prices on blends are affecting the pipe tobacco industry's bottom line. Prices need to rise as they haven't kept up with inflation. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 13:30:32 GMT -5
I do as I please: That's all you've got? No, that doesn't include tins.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 13:33:14 GMT -5
I see what you did here. The stock market is so volatile and putting your retirement money under your mattress doesn't have a large enough return. I do as I please: You're onto me. I'm also into freeze dried food with a 25 year shelf life these days as well. |
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Post by peterd-Buffalo Spirit on Feb 15, 2018 13:51:10 GMT -5
...for all the discourse here...Penzance is an OK pipe tobacco, perhaps above average...I've smoked it from time-to-time years ago...I've grown accustomed to seeing many tobaccos I've enjoy disappear for whatever reason...I think in many ways that's why I have been on my journey of re-discovering OTC tobaccos...including all the match versions...
Frankly, I won't pay the steep prices these older tobaccos command...if you can find them. I remain satisfied with what is available and leave the rich folks to spend what they want.
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Post by peteguy on Feb 15, 2018 14:18:12 GMT -5
Freeze dried food haha.
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Post by cigrmaster on Feb 15, 2018 14:35:35 GMT -5
I have been smoking through a pound of 2007 Stonehaven. I also cracked a tin of 2012 Mac Baren Old Dark Fired recently and I have to say, I enjoy both blends for what they are, world class Virginia/Burley flakes. If I could not get Stonehaven at 35.00 a bag, I sure would not pay scalpers prices. ODF is readily available at attractive prices compared to Stonehaven.
I believe Esoterica exists only because of 2 blends, Stonehaven and Penzance. When those were readily available back in the day, Esoterica was just another company and most of their blends were average at best. Take away those 2 blends and they are out of business in my opinion. Now because of the scalping of the Stone and Penz, all their other blends have become legend and they really shouldn't be.
If people are going to pay ridiculous prices there will always be people willing to sell it to them. It doesn't matter if it is butter or guns, a sale is a sale. If I have any Stonehaven left when I take my dirt nap, my kids will sell my bags for as much as they can.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 15:00:53 GMT -5
I have been smoking through a pound of 2007 Stonehaven. I also cracked a tin of 2012 Mac Baren Old Dark Fired recently and I have to say, I enjoy both blends for what they are, world class Virginia/Burley flakes. If I could not get Stonehaven at 35.00 a bag, I sure would not pay scalpers prices. ODF is readily available at attractive prices compared to Stonehaven. I believe Esoterica exists only because of 2 blends, Stonehaven and Penzance. When those were readily available back in the day, Esoterica was just another company and most of their blends were average at best. Take away those 2 blends and they are out of business in my opinion. Now because of the scalping of the Stone and Penz, all their other blends have become legend and they really shouldn't be. If people are going to pay ridiculous prices there will always be people willing to sell it to them. It doesn't matter if it is butter or guns, a sale is a sale. If I have any Stonehaven left when I take my dirt nap, my kids will sell my bags for as much as they can. Nice avatar. Chris Squire was the man on the bass. Actually, Stonehaven and Penzance are investments for me, probably my most flipped. I do like them both very well; however, I'd be fine without either as long as Marlin Flake, Solani Silver Flake and GLP Quiet Nights are available. They always will be for me. If more readily available, Dunbar could stand alone as well as the big two. It's actually my favorite of the lot, my preferred all day smoke. |
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sablebrush52
Full Member
Posts: 903
Favorite Pipe: Barling
Favorite Tobacco: whatever is in it
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Post by sablebrush52 on Feb 15, 2018 16:51:38 GMT -5
My faves are Dunbar and Dorchester. I'm good for maybe one or two bowls of Stonehaven a month. Any more than that and it becomes a bore. Penzance I don't smoke at all. When I first tried it in 2996 I just didn't like it. I jarred that bag and gave it another shot in 2014. Still didn't like it. I have a few bags stashed away for sharing, gifting, or gouging. No trading. People are delusional about the value of their Holly's Non Plus Ultra.
In case you didn't know, Dan Tobacco's Holly's Non Plus Ultra is the best tobacco made today, bar none. If you don't believe me, just check out the reviews on tobaccoreviews.com.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 17:37:57 GMT -5
The thing about Penzance is that there is no other blend quite like it, AFIK. It's not like a typical variation on a theme - like VA or VaPer flakes. Yes. I know it's an "English" blends but to me there's something very different about it than anything I've tried from SG, SPC, Boswell's, Dunhill, etc. etc. Not that it's objectively better, but for those who really love it, it's difficult to scratch the same itch with another blend. I'm not sure that's the case with Ramsgate, Tilbury, etc., though I guess it is for Stonehaven.
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Post by cigrmaster on Feb 15, 2018 18:17:20 GMT -5
10furlongs, thanks on the avatar, Squire was the best bassist I ever saw and I have seen my share.
When I was smoking Penzance it was in my top 2-3 English blends. One English blend I never see anyone talking about is Two Friends Deacons Downfall. To my tastes it was right up there with Penzance, definitely different but a blend that I really enjoyed. There are just too many great blends out there to get bent out of shape for just a few. I probably have half a dozen or more flakes that I put ahead of Stonehaven.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 21:40:59 GMT -5
In case you didn't know, Dan Tobacco's Holly's Non Plus Ultra is the best tobacco made today, bar none. If you don't believe me, just check out the reviews on tobaccoreviews.com. Rut Row Shaggy....Another that won't be available by daybreak tomorrow.  |
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Post by crapgame on Feb 15, 2018 22:04:48 GMT -5
...for all the discourse here...Penzance is an OK pipe tobacco, perhaps above average...I've smoked it from time-to-time years ago...I've grown accustomed to seeing many tobaccos I've enjoy disappear for whatever reason...I think in many ways that's why I have been on my journey of re-discovering OTC tobaccos...including all the match versions... Frankly, I won't pay the steep prices these older tobaccos command...if you can find them. I remain satisfied with what is available and leave the rich folks to spend what they want. Very well stated! |
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Post by crapgame on Feb 15, 2018 22:08:32 GMT -5
I have been smoking through a pound of 2007 Stonehaven. I also cracked a tin of 2012 Mac Baren Old Dark Fired recently and I have to say, I enjoy both blends for what they are, world class Virginia/Burley flakes. If I could not get Stonehaven at 35.00 a bag, I sure would not pay scalpers prices. ODF is readily available at attractive prices compared to Stonehaven. I believe Esoterica exists only because of 2 blends, Stonehaven and Penzance. When those were readily available back in the day, Esoterica was just another company and most of their blends were average at best. Take away those 2 blends and they are out of business in my opinion. Now because of the scalping of the Stone and Penz, all their other blends have become legend and they really shouldn't be. If people are going to pay ridiculous prices there will always be people willing to sell it to them. It doesn't matter if it is butter or guns, a sale is a sale. If I have any Stonehaven left when I take my dirt nap, my kids will sell my bags for as much as they can. Nice avatar. Chris Squire was the man on the bass. Actually, Stonehaven and Penzance are investments for me, probably my most flipped. I do like them both very well; however, I'd be fine without either as long as Marlin Flake, Solani Silver Flake and GLP Quiet Nights are available. They always will be for me. If more readily available, Dunbar could stand alone as well as the big two. It's actually my favorite of the lot, my preferred all day smoke. Wasn't Nikki Squire the singer for Esquire?? Nikki was Chris' wife..i think.. |
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Post by crapgame on Feb 15, 2018 22:12:13 GMT -5
I don't hoard tobacco I smoke it and enjoy it.. whatever the blend I smoke it.. why buy it if you cant enjoy it?
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Post by herbinedave on Feb 15, 2018 22:27:49 GMT -5
If you could only find Smoker's Haven Krumble Kake. You might throw all your Penzance away!
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Post by daveinlax on Feb 16, 2018 10:37:52 GMT -5
If you could only find Smoker's Haven Krumble Kake. You might throw all your Penzance away! IMO KK would bring Bohemian Scandal and Balkan Sobranie white prices. I been enjoying the dust up on Reddit! I don't mind what anybody asks or pays for tobacco. I spend 1000's of dollars a year just on hotels, travel and food to enjoy smoke fill fun. Up till about 5 years ago I never would have thought of selling my tobacco but I looked at it and thought I would never smoke it all. I cashed in and now pretty much only buy tobacco that has a big upside to help me pay for my pipe obsession.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 15:07:34 GMT -5
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