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Post by crapgame on Dec 4, 2018 21:50:43 GMT -5
Certain foods you don’t want to prepare in stainless steel, acidic foods especially like citrus. Do you think it was a metal> acidic reaction? Definitely! The smell was atrocious ... sort of like concentrated cat pee that had molded.  drop an old penny in some acid and see how bad it smells.. |
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Dec 4, 2018 22:09:46 GMT -5
A noble experiment. A small oak barrel might be ideal, but finding one is the problem. Some "historic villages" have coopers who'll make small barrels in a demonstration workshop, but the only ones I have been to are on the East Coast.
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jitterbugdude
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Post by jitterbugdude on Dec 5, 2018 8:06:22 GMT -5
Darin, I just saw this post. I guess I'm a little late to the party. As your Perique was aging did you periodically top it off with water? If not, that is most likely your problem. If you let it set uncovered, the water/goo acts as an oxygen barrier and if it evaporates you loose your barrier.
You did the right thing using stainless steel. Do not use a wooden barrel. No one uses them anymore because the wood breeds undesirable microbes. And before everyone jumps all over me.. all the barrels that are used down in St James are lined with plastic. Don't believe me? Go back and look at any video of people unpacking a barrel and you will see what I am talking about. SmokingPipes has a good video as well as Pipes Magazine.
Edit: Found one of several videos....
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Post by pepesdad1 on Dec 5, 2018 9:40:45 GMT -5
Facts with a backup...thanks Randy...got to the point and had backup to prove it. Wouldn't have guessed that the barrels were actually cosmetic.
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Dec 5, 2018 14:27:57 GMT -5
Whoa-Woe! First post here deserves a Gilda Radnor exclamation of "Well, never mind!" Hope to do better in the future. Thanks for the clear explanation and illustration, Randy/Mr. JBDude!
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Post by Legend Lover on Dec 5, 2018 17:02:01 GMT -5
Whoa-Woe! First post here deserves a Gilda Radnor exclamation of "Well, never mind!" Hope to do better in the future. Thanks for the clear explanation and illustration, Randy/Mr. JBDude! Welcome to the forum, Mac. Good to have you on board. |
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Post by Darin on Dec 5, 2018 18:10:16 GMT -5
Thanks, Randy ... my impression is that the uneven lid was causing air pockets. I'll try it again with more precise fittings and in a smaller batch. Welcome to the forum Mac!  |
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Dec 5, 2018 20:07:06 GMT -5
Thanks, Gents. It's good to find this forum.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2018 21:16:20 GMT -5
I love perique. I have 3 quart jars packed full. Opened one recently to blend with some virginia and man the smell could knock you out. Only good things happening in those jars.
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Post by trailboss on Dec 5, 2018 22:21:54 GMT -5
Not so fast here! If Darin Buys me a keg of Makers Mark, I will provide the bags!  |
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Post by pappyjoe on Dec 6, 2018 7:55:18 GMT -5
I'm not going to argue with a video, but the times I've been to the L.A. Poché Perique Facility in St. James Parish, I don't remember seeing any of the barrels under pressure being lined with plastic. Most of the barrels seemed to have some leakage from the juices which wouldn't happen if the barrels were lined. I do know the process involves removing the tobacco from the barrels at different intervals, turning it and then placing it back in the barrels. Maybe they use the liners when putting the perique in the barrels for aging after processing.
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jitterbugdude
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Post by jitterbugdude on Dec 6, 2018 13:11:19 GMT -5
And here's Mark Ryan...
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Post by pappyjoe on Dec 6, 2018 23:27:55 GMT -5
I emailed Mark Ryan. He said the don’t put the Perique into lined barrels until the third turning when the entire 500 lbs of Perique is forced into the barrel.
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Post by trailboss on Dec 7, 2018 0:36:50 GMT -5
I emailed Mark Ryan. He said the don’t put the Perique into lined barrels until the third turning when the entire 500 lbs of Perique is forced into the barrel. That makes sense. I remember Brian Levine interviewing Mark and Brian said (paraphrased) "I love Perique so much that I would hug a barrel of it" Mark replied "That would be the last time you would do it" The clear inference was that the leached drippings would quickly have you doing the Watusi dance. With the video, it is understandable why JB concluded that...I would too. Darin needs to take a break from running the the lab, and spend some time in Louisiana as an intern/ espionage agent...  |
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jitterbugdude
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Post by jitterbugdude on Dec 7, 2018 4:46:05 GMT -5
I emailed Mark Ryan. He said the don’t put the Perique into lined barrels until the third turning when the entire 500 lbs of Perique is forced into the barrel. Interesting, but that begs the question.... why? |
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Post by pappyjoe on Dec 7, 2018 8:26:24 GMT -5
I emailed Mark Ryan. He said the don’t put the Perique into lined barrels until the third turning when the entire 500 lbs of Perique is forced into the barrel. Interesting, but that begs the question.... why? Because the unlined barrels allow air exchange with the tobacco under pressure probably and that promotes the fermentation process. The other answer is one I learned to hate while in the military, "Because that's the way it has always been done..." In fact, I would guess that before Mark Ryan bought L.A. Poché, they previous owners never used lined barrels at all. You also have to consider that according to some stories, perique was made by the local Native American tribe by basically putting the tobacco into hollow logs and compacting it by placing stones on the tobacco. |
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jitterbugdude
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Post by jitterbugdude on Dec 7, 2018 13:50:39 GMT -5
I think you hit the nail on the head with "Because that's the way it has always been done..."
In today's modern times it makes no sense to use a wooden barrel. If you do not keep barrels wet inside the staves will shrink just enough to allow seepage. It also works both ways if water can get out, then air can get in. You want a container that is absolutely air tight because you want an anaerobic fermentation, not an aerobic+aerobic one.
The guys in St James probably make so many batches that their barrels never get a chance to dry out.
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Post by pappyjoe on Dec 7, 2018 14:00:07 GMT -5
I think you hit the nail on the head with "Because that's the way it has always been done..." In today's modern times it makes no sense to use a wooden barrel. If you do not keep barrels wet inside the staves will shrink just enough to allow seepage. It also works both ways if water can get out, then air can get in. You want a container that is absolutely air tight because you want an anaerobic fermentation, not an aerobic+aerobic one. The guys in St James probably make so many batches that their barrels never get a chance to dry out. We'll disagree on this. If you change from a wooden barrel to a metal barrel that is lined you change the aging composition of the tobacco. Think what would happen if the stopped aging wine, bourbon or scotch in wooden barrels and then just left them to age in stainless steel. They would lose some of the characteristics that make them flavorful. |
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Post by Darin on Dec 7, 2018 14:01:15 GMT -5
Great observations and discussion, gents! During the first stages, pressure on the leaves is still being increased more and more. Also, the re-absorption of the liquid each time the pressure is released is important. So it stands to reason that you could get away with the somewhat aerobic environment until you were "ready for business". On that third time around the lamina has been fully busted open and the fluids taken back in ... ready to ferment. |
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Post by Darin on Dec 7, 2018 14:06:25 GMT -5
I think you hit the nail on the head with "Because that's the way it has always been done..." In today's modern times it makes no sense to use a wooden barrel. If you do not keep barrels wet inside the staves will shrink just enough to allow seepage. It also works both ways if water can get out, then air can get in. You want a container that is absolutely air tight because you want an anaerobic fermentation, not an aerobic+aerobic one. The guys in St James probably make so many batches that their barrels never get a chance to dry out. We'll disagree on this. If you change from a wooden barrel to a metal barrel that is lined you change the aging composition of the tobacco. Think what would happen if the stopped aging wine, bourbon or scotch in wooden barrels and then just left them to age in stainless steel. They would lose some of the characteristics that make them flavorful. The difference is that wine, bourbon, scotch, etc. actually get their coloring and some flavors from the barrels themselves and are aerobic. Perique does not need the barrel for flavor and ferments anaerobically. |
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Post by pappyjoe on Dec 7, 2018 14:17:38 GMT -5
Like I said, we will just have to agree to disagree. I'm going to believe what the people who are actually making the Perique which is sold to the major blenders tell me about the process and they say the barrels are an important part of producing St. James Perique.
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jitterbugdude
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Post by jitterbugdude on Dec 7, 2018 14:49:27 GMT -5
I think for the home Perique maker you want a sterile vessel such as stainless steel. The advantage the Perique makers have that do this for a living is that their barrels are probably heavily inoculated with the proper yeasts from using the same barrels for decades.
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Post by Darin on Dec 7, 2018 15:15:06 GMT -5
I think for the home Perique maker you want a sterile vessel such as stainless steel. The advantage the Perique makers have that do this for a living is that their barrels are probably heavily inoculated with the proper yeasts from using the same barrels for decades.Good point ... the cracks are probably sealed shut with that black goo as well! For my next round, I'll do either stainless or perhaps Lexan so I can watch the progress. There's always more than one way to skin a rabbit and what works for giant batches may not apply to small quantities. |
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