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Post by Legend Lover on Apr 7, 2019 11:32:27 GMT -5
Next they'll tell us that smoking is bad for you.
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Post by Darin on Apr 7, 2019 12:26:31 GMT -5
The problem with society is that they get their health information off the 6 o' clock news. Their doctors get it from there too or from their drug dealer that shows up once a week to peddle his big pharma wares. I have always read medical journals for my health info ( weird, I know). Some tidbits: Aspirin has never been shown with any degree of certainty to prevent a primary heart attack. But it does lead to a 6 fold increase in strokes. This info has been known since the 80's. Doctors are pretty much boobs when it comes to doing anything proactive. This entire "take a baby aspirin to prevent a heart attack" probably came from Doctor's knowing that aspirin prevents a secondary heart attack so by their faulty logic..it must also prevent a primary heart attack too. How many people have they killed with that logic? Fat has never been bad for you... unless you believe the 6'o clock news or your doctor. It has always been carbs!.. the sugar industry is as powerful as they come. Fat "IS" bad for you if you consume it with carbs. Again, the faulty logic with doctors. And the BS that complex carbs are good... carbs are carbs!.. They all raise your blood sugar. How many diabetic people die every-year because their moron doctor/nutritionist put them on a diet that contains carbs? A diabetic cannot process carbs! they are poison, yet doctors/nutritionists always recommend them in the form of "complex carbs". If you had lung cancer do you think your doctor would recommend cutting back to a pack a day? Or if you had liver disease do you think your doc would tell you to cut back to just a few shots of whiskey? I think not, because those are poisons to lung cancer/liver disease patients but for some strange reason doctors tell diabetics to eat carbs (poison). End of rant...
Amen, Randy!!
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Post by Stearmandriver on Apr 7, 2019 14:26:08 GMT -5
This is actually an interesting study. I don't know all the details, but the sample size seems plenty large enough for a valid dataset, and the methodology is novel: two things you'd expect in a study that produced some new information.
In this case, though, I'm not sure what's new: alcohol has been classified as a group one (known) human carcinogen for over 12 years now. (Of course, tobacco is as well.)
Reading this thread, I see two common themes. The first is an independent mentality; a notion that each of us should be able to decide for ourselves what is an acceptable risk. This is more philosophy than science, and I'm in agreement. I have both a few drinks and a few pipes per week, after all.
The second, though, is a tendency to dismiss or minimize facts we don't like. Sure, we all wish alcohol and tobacco were good for us, or at least not bad for us, but we know beyond any doubt that this is simply not true. They both directly and indirectly cause cancer and other disease.
I feel like the thing we all have to do is decide for ourselves what level of exposure to these risks is acceptable for us. It's probably not helpful to pretend decades of solid research and an overwhelming consensus based on the evidence is simply wrong though.
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Post by trailboss on Apr 7, 2019 16:35:16 GMT -5
I agree...great post and a reminder to me to start looking at low carb alternatives...Tosh had a great suggestion on modifying a dish I posted to cut the carbs...I can eat anything, the wife however has a family history of diabetes.
Good post, Stearmandriver and I am all for scientific research based in facts...the problem is, we live in a world where financial, and philosophical interests can often have an undue influence on the research that sometimes takes place. I agree with not throwing the baby out with the bathwater...people need to take charge of their own health, do the homework and decide if the risks are worthwhile in how they want to live their lives.
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Post by pepesdad1 on Apr 7, 2019 16:50:58 GMT -5
Sure am glad I have a Dr. that actually knows what the hell he is talking about and actually cares about my wife and my health...we have been with him for over 15 years and I can't/won't move because I can't take him with me. He is one in a million and I know that he knows what he is talking about when I visit him.
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chasingembers
Senior Member
Posts: 1,912 
First Name: Duane
Favorite Pipe: My Growing J. Everett Collection, Fifteen Day Bruce Weaver Set, Meerschaums, Oguz Simsek Skulls
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Post by chasingembers on Apr 7, 2019 19:08:17 GMT -5
According to modern medicine, what doesn't cause cancer and disease?
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Post by trailboss on Apr 7, 2019 19:10:55 GMT -5
According to modern medicine, what doesn't cause cancer and disease? Ain't that the truth. California has linked everything to cancer...at some point it is like cryin wolf. |
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Post by puffy on Apr 7, 2019 19:21:43 GMT -5
Cancer has been around forever..Even when life styles were completely different from ours today..My uncle never drank alcohol or smoked died from Cancer at 72 years old.
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Post by Stearmandriver on Apr 7, 2019 19:42:57 GMT -5
According to modern medicine, what doesn't cause cancer and disease? Well... quite a few things. I mean, there is a finite list of known and suspected carcinogens. "Everything" is obviously not on it, right?  Also pointless are anecdotes about "X didn't smoke or drink and died young, while Y did all the bad things and lived to 120." When it comes to cancer, heart disease, and really every other kind of disease, genetics plays a huge role, as does blind luck. But it IS absolutely true that consumption of alcohol and tobacco increase your risk of cancer and some other diseases. How much? That depends on how much and how regularly you consume it, your other contributing environmental and lifestyle risks, your family history, and your dumb luck. So obviously everyone's risk is different, and obviously everyone's analysis of how much risk is acceptable is different, and that's all as it should be. But pretending there IS no risk, or the risk is the same as drinking water and eating carrots, is probably disingenuous. And again, this comes from someone who enjoys a few drinks and a few pipes a week, eats red meat etc. I'm not preaching, just suggesting we shouldn't turn a blind eye to reality. |
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stone
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Post by stone on Apr 7, 2019 19:47:52 GMT -5
Beer makes you happy + Happy people live longer = Beer makes you live longer.
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stone
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Post by stone on Apr 7, 2019 19:52:14 GMT -5
People try to tell that "when it's your time, it's your time" "you are born with your orientation" "blah, blah, blah": as if it's all pre-determined. Yet people also tell us if we live life outside of the bubble we will surely shorten our life.
People like to see their name in print!
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Post by pepesdad1 on Apr 7, 2019 19:57:29 GMT -5
People like to see their name in print! Pretty much says it all.
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chasingembers
Senior Member
Posts: 1,912
First Name: Duane
Favorite Pipe: My Growing J. Everett Collection, Fifteen Day Bruce Weaver Set, Meerschaums, Oguz Simsek Skulls
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Post by chasingembers on Apr 8, 2019 12:48:17 GMT -5
According to modern medicine, what doesn't cause cancer and disease? Well... quite a few things. I mean, there is a finite list of known and suspected carcinogens. "Everything" is obviously not on it, right? Also pointless are anecdotes about "X didn't smoke or drink and died young, while Y did all the bad things and lived to 120." When it comes to cancer, heart disease, and really every other kind of disease, genetics plays a huge role, as does blind luck. But it IS absolutely true that consumption of alcohol and tobacco increase your risk of cancer and some other diseases. How much? That depends on how much and how regularly you consume it, your other contributing environmental and lifestyle risks, your family history, and your dumb luck. So obviously everyone's risk is different, and obviously everyone's analysis of how much risk is acceptable is different, and that's all as it should be. But pretending there IS no risk, or the risk is the same as drinking water and eating carrots, is probably disingenuous. And again, this comes from someone who enjoys a few drinks and a few pipes a week, eats red meat etc. I'm not preaching, just suggesting we shouldn't turn a blind eye to reality. Just implying that the leading cause of death is living, and carrots were linked to cancer. www.google.com/amp/s/www.health.com/smoking/lung-cancer-food-causes%3famp=true |
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Post by Stearmandriver on Apr 8, 2019 15:52:48 GMT -5
Er... per your source, that link between beta-carotene and cancer was referencing supplements, not carrots... and it only increased the cancer risk for smokers. |
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chasingembers
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Favorite Pipe: My Growing J. Everett Collection, Fifteen Day Bruce Weaver Set, Meerschaums, Oguz Simsek Skulls
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Post by chasingembers on Apr 8, 2019 18:05:55 GMT -5
Er... per your source, that link between beta-carotene and cancer was referencing supplements, not carrots... and it only increased the cancer risk for smokers. Isn't everything a risk for smokers? My point being that today's miracle drug or food is tomorrow's class action lawsuit. I don't trust doctors any further than I can throw them and blame them for faster death than the disease. One misdiagnosed me as a child and left me clinically dead for three minutes. Later in life one prescribed a medication for anxiety that caused me neural "zaps" and short term memory loss. The medical field has advanced technologically, but the guess work is still firmly rooted in the Stone Age. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2019 18:30:20 GMT -5
Whenever I have to visit a Doctor or Dentist, I remind myself that 50% of them graduated in the bottom half of their class.
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Post by toshtego on Apr 8, 2019 18:57:01 GMT -5
Pouring myself another measure of Rye and laughing in the face of death....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2019 20:48:04 GMT -5
The ironic thing is that OTC drugs can be far more harmful than an occasional drink in moderation. If you take things like ibuprofen, omeprazole, acetaminophen, nasal steroids for allergies etc. etc. every day that's potentially going to mess up your health far more than a beer ot a glass of wine a day.
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Post by Legend Lover on Apr 9, 2019 2:02:40 GMT -5
The ironic thing is that OTC drugs can be far more harmful than an occasional drink in moderation. If you take things like ibuprofen, omeprazole, acetaminophen, nasal steroids for allergies etc. etc. every day that's potentially going to mess up your health far more than a beer ot a glass of wine a day. I totally agree, and I think that's where the rub lies...I agree with Stearmandriver that smoking and drinking DOES affect our health - there's no point in pretending it doesn't, and there's no argument there from me. But these studies tend to demonise, to an extent, such practices, and I think it's in an attempt to reduce the public's intake of alcohol and smoke etc., but what gets me is what @chico has just said - sure, it might be bad to drink in moderation, but it's possibly worse to be taking many OTC drugs, but you don't see those practices demonised to the same extent. |
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Post by Stearmandriver on Apr 9, 2019 9:49:57 GMT -5
I don't trust doctors any further than I can throw them and blame them for faster death than the disease. Hrm. Really? So you've never been to a doctor for a serious medical condition, and will never go? Never needed antibiotics for a bacterial infection? When you're lying in bed with what you're pretty sure is appendicitis, you'll just rub some essential oils on it and hope for the best? Because, logically, if what you say is true, you STILL wouldn't go to the doctor, right? Dunno, man. That sounds like a touch of hyperbole to me... but if you're sincere, I respect your conviction, however misplaced it may be. Look, is human error still a thing in medicine? Of course. Because humans. To the medical industry's credit, they have in the last 20 years studied and adopted many risk-management and threat/error mgmt. techniques from my industry to corral that somewhat. Are they perfect? No. Are seatbelts? No. But suggesting people shouldn't wear them because they don't ALWAYS work is obviously not the way to go. Because statistically, the data is clear: seatbelts save a lot more people than they harm. So do doctors . OTC drugs are an interesting point. Are most of them worse than known carcinogens that also cause heart and other disease? Probably not, but the field is large and I bet there are examples. I'd be even more suspect of prescription drugs, the "ask your doctor" variety. The fact that the pharmaceutical companies actually advertise medicine to consumers here blows me away. I'm sure there are people who all these drugs help... but how many people are "asking" for what they don't need or shouldn't have? BTW,I enjoyed a dram of Laphroaig Triple Wood with friends the other night. Helluva good scotch if you like the Islay stuff! 😁 |
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Apr 9, 2019 11:21:52 GMT -5
I like to do some things in excess....but only once in a while.......
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Post by Stearmandriver on Apr 9, 2019 21:11:51 GMT -5
I like to do some things in excess....but only once in a while....... Sounds like moderation to me! |
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chasingembers
Senior Member
Posts: 1,912
First Name: Duane
Favorite Pipe: My Growing J. Everett Collection, Fifteen Day Bruce Weaver Set, Meerschaums, Oguz Simsek Skulls
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Post by chasingembers on Apr 10, 2019 3:36:04 GMT -5
I don't trust doctors any further than I can throw them and blame them for faster death than the disease. Hrm. Really? So you've never been to a doctor for a serious medical condition, and will never go? Never needed antibiotics for a bacterial infection? When you're lying in bed with what you're pretty sure is appendicitis, you'll just rub some essential oils on it and hope for the best? Because, logically, if what you say is true, you STILL wouldn't go to the doctor, right? Dunno, man. That sounds like a touch of hyperbole to me... but if you're sincere, I respect your conviction, however misplaced it may be. Look, is human error still a thing in medicine? Of course. Because humans. To the medical industry's credit, they have in the last 20 years studied and adopted many risk-management and threat/error mgmt. techniques from my industry to corral that somewhat. Are they perfect? No. Are seatbelts? No. But suggesting people shouldn't wear them because they don't ALWAYS work is obviously not the way to go. Because statistically, the data is clear: seatbelts save a lot more people than they harm. So do doctors . OTC drugs are an interesting point. Are most of them worse than known carcinogens that also cause heart and other disease? Probably not, but the field is large and I bet there are examples. I'd be even more suspect of prescription drugs, the "ask your doctor" variety. The fact that the pharmaceutical companies actually advertise medicine to consumers here blows me away. I'm sure there are people who all these drugs help... but how many people are "asking" for what they don't need or shouldn't have? BTW,I enjoyed a dram of Laphroaig Triple Wood with friends the other night. Helluva good scotch if you like the Islay stuff! 😁 Funny you should mention appendicitis, that was what was misdiagnosed. The blood infection caused cardiac arrest at age 6 and thankfully was resuscitated. Haven't been to a doctor since the mid nineties, I pull my own bad teeth, you don't need a doctor to order antibiotics online, and essential oils are only good for air fresheners. |
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Post by Legend Lover on Apr 10, 2019 7:14:34 GMT -5
Hrm. Really? So you've never been to a doctor for a serious medical condition, and will never go? Never needed antibiotics for a bacterial infection? When you're lying in bed with what you're pretty sure is appendicitis, you'll just rub some essential oils on it and hope for the best? Because, logically, if what you say is true, you STILL wouldn't go to the doctor, right? Dunno, man. That sounds like a touch of hyperbole to me... but if you're sincere, I respect your conviction, however misplaced it may be. Look, is human error still a thing in medicine? Of course. Because humans. To the medical industry's credit, they have in the last 20 years studied and adopted many risk-management and threat/error mgmt. techniques from my industry to corral that somewhat. Are they perfect? No. Are seatbelts? No. But suggesting people shouldn't wear them because they don't ALWAYS work is obviously not the way to go. Because statistically, the data is clear: seatbelts save a lot more people than they harm. So do doctors . OTC drugs are an interesting point. Are most of them worse than known carcinogens that also cause heart and other disease? Probably not, but the field is large and I bet there are examples. I'd be even more suspect of prescription drugs, the "ask your doctor" variety. The fact that the pharmaceutical companies actually advertise medicine to consumers here blows me away. I'm sure there are people who all these drugs help... but how many people are "asking" for what they don't need or shouldn't have? BTW,I enjoyed a dram of Laphroaig Triple Wood with friends the other night. Helluva good scotch if you like the Islay stuff! 😁 Funny you should mention appendicitis, that was what was misdiagnosed. The blood infection caused cardiac arrest at age 6 and thankfully was resuscitated. Haven't been to a doctor since the mid nineties, I pull my own bad teeth, you don't need a doctor to order antibiotics online, and essential oils are only good for air fresheners. Good grief, you're hard-core! |
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chasingembers
Senior Member
Posts: 1,912
First Name: Duane
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Location:
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Post by chasingembers on Apr 10, 2019 7:37:00 GMT -5
My upbringing. I come from much tougher stock than myself.
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stone
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Post by stone on Apr 10, 2019 8:17:01 GMT -5
The ironic thing is that OTC drugs can be far more harmful than an occasional drink in moderation. If you take things like ibuprofen, omeprazole, acetaminophen, nasal steroids for allergies etc. etc. every day that's potentially going to mess up your health far more than a beer ot a glass of wine a day. Holy crap!
I am just going to assume that a bunch of beer, wine, and martinis wash away the bad effects of ibuprofen and omeprazole!
Otherwise, I'd be dead!
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