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Post by Legend Lover on Jul 10, 2019 14:11:58 GMT -5
Maybe I'm reading this wrong or misinterpreting it. It looks like STG brought the Trademarks, which is the names of the blends. It doesn't say the bought the recipes or manufacturing facilities or the rights to recreate the blends. They bought the names to use however they want. Am I wrong? You may not be. Good observation. |
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rmb
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Post by rmb on Jul 10, 2019 14:17:25 GMT -5
Weren't they already manufacturing them under Orlik anyhow?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2019 15:12:06 GMT -5
It would make sense they have the recipes to avoid the 2007 FDA requirement or there would be no point in purchasing the trademark. Found elsewhere was . . .
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Post by trailboss on Jul 10, 2019 15:20:29 GMT -5
It would make sense they have the recipes to avoid the 2007 FDA requirement or there would be no point in purchasing the trademark. Good point. STG I would imagine has a lot more resources than Orlik, maybe it will be made with a more premium leaf and improve. |
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Post by smellthehatfirst on Jul 10, 2019 15:51:01 GMT -5
It would make sense they have the recipes to avoid the 2007 FDA requirement or there would be no point in purchasing the trademark. Good point. STG I would imagine has a lot more resources than Orlik, maybe it will be made with a more premium leaf and improve. Orlik is an STG subsidiary. Has been for many years. |
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Post by smellthehatfirst on Jul 10, 2019 15:52:35 GMT -5
Maybe I'm reading this wrong or misinterpreting it. It looks like STG brought the Trademarks, which is the names of the blends. It doesn't say the bought the recipes or manufacturing facilities or the rights to recreate the blends. They bought the names to use however they want. Am I wrong? STG was already the manufacturer of the blends, so they were already the owner of the facilities and the recipes and so on. |
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Post by Legend Lover on Jul 10, 2019 16:03:37 GMT -5
Since stg is Scandinavian, the fda won't have jurisdiction over what they blend for the rest of the world, would they?
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Post by smellthehatfirst on Jul 10, 2019 16:38:15 GMT -5
Since stg is Scandinavian, the fda won't have jurisdiction over what they blend for the rest of the world, would they? Hard to say.
For "premium" tobacco the U.S. has long been the elephant in the room. The U.S. alone is more than half of world cigar sales, for example. Whatever the FDA does to cigars in the U.S. will have an enormous impact on the world market.
It's harder to get statistics about pipe tobacco because it is not usually broken out of the larger category of "smoking tobacco" (i.e. mixtures for RYO cigarettes.)
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Jul 10, 2019 19:07:42 GMT -5
Maybe I'm reading this wrong or misinterpreting it. It looks like STG brought the Trademarks, which is the names of the blends. It doesn't say the bought the recipes or manufacturing facilities or the rights to recreate the blends. They bought the names to use however they want. Am I wrong? STG was already the manufacturer of the blends, so they were already the owner of the facilities and the recipes and so on. Not necessarily. They had use of the recipes while manufacturing under license. Of course, it'd make little sense to own the tin art and name if they couldn't also own the recipe. Using the recipe without permission would bring lawsuits. Then I wonder: What if they changed the composition by 1% more of this, a hair less of that, etc.....?? |
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Post by smellthehatfirst on Jul 10, 2019 19:23:40 GMT -5
STG was already the manufacturer of the blends, so they were already the owner of the facilities and the recipes and so on. Not necessarily. They had use of the recipes while manufacturing under license. Of course, it'd make little sense to own the tin art and name if they couldn't also own the recipe. Using the recipe without permission would bring lawsuits. I don't know much about the legal situation in the EU, but in the US, recipes are not copyrightable or patent-eligble, and they're only eligible for "trade secret" protection under very specific circumstances that could not possibly apply to most tobacco blends.
If you disclose some not-particularly-secret recipes to a contract manufacturer, and your relationship ends, you're not going to have a lot of ground to stand on.
I imagine the situation is at least similar in the EU. Look at what K&K did with the Peterson blends after their relationship with Peterson ended -- they popped up almost immediately with Rattray's branding.
If the legal situation is really bad in the EU, STG already owns one of the largest U.S. pipe tobacco makers: Lane, Limited. In that case, maybe watch out for tins labeled "made in USA"  |
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Post by monbla256 on Jul 10, 2019 21:26:09 GMT -5
That's good news. I just bought a tin of the charatan version of emp. I might try the 'new' version of emp and compare both with the old version that I have. Will they still go under the dunhill name?  |
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sablebrush52
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Post by sablebrush52 on Jul 10, 2019 23:58:55 GMT -5
Even if the STG blends had continued to be made under licensing to BAT, using the Dunhill name, they would not have been eligible to be grandfathered because they were pulled from the US market about 9 to 10 years ago for about a year. To be grandfathered, a blend has to be continuously available in the US market since before February 15th 2007. Assuming the FDA enforces their deeming rules, STG will need to go through the SE deeming process for the blends to remain in the US market after August 8th 2022.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2019 2:21:53 GMT -5
You left out the part where circa 2005-2010 Swedish Match/General Cigar was the distributer circa 2007 or so. Before that RJR Holdings was part of BAT circa 2004 Lane/Bat/RJR. Swedish Match/General Cigar merger circa 2005. Swedish Match shares distribution rights with STG circa 2005 until buyout circa 2017.All of these companies were in bed together follow the cigar for the story. So you couldn't find or you could not get it? And even if you did find it, it was not really Dunhill by your own admission. The distribution rights have always been in place let the lawyers figure it all out.
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sablebrush52
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Post by sablebrush52 on Jul 11, 2019 10:05:21 GMT -5
You left out the part where circa 2005-2010 Swedish Match/General Cigar was the distributer circa 2007 or so. Before that RJR Holdings was part of BAT circa 2004 Lane/Bat/RJR. Swedish Match/General Cigar merger circa 2005. Swedish Match shares distribution rights with STG circa 2005 until buyout circa 2017.All of these companies were in bed together follow the cigar for the story. So you couldn't find or you could not get it? And even if you did find it, it was not really Dunhill by your own admission. The distribution rights have always been in place let the lawyers figure it all out. The incestuous relationships between Dunhill, Rothmann's, Rosemont, BAT, etal is more convoluted than the Hapsburgs, Bourbons and Romanovs combined. But actually none of that matters since the only salient point is that the blends were pulled out of the US market and then returned after February 15th 2007. As for letting the lawyers duke it out, it would be a lot faster, and a whole lot cheaper, just to pay the SE deeming fees. |
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Post by unknownpipesmoker on Jul 11, 2019 11:53:54 GMT -5
Nightcap rescued. Right on.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2019 12:05:23 GMT -5
You left out the part where circa 2005-2010 Swedish Match/General Cigar was the distributer circa 2007 or so. Before that RJR Holdings was part of BAT circa 2004 Lane/Bat/RJR. Swedish Match/General Cigar merger circa 2005. Swedish Match shares distribution rights with STG circa 2005 until buyout circa 2017.All of these companies were in bed together follow the cigar for the story. So you couldn't find or you could not get it? And even if you did find it, it was not really Dunhill by your own admission. The distribution rights have always been in place let the lawyers figure it all out. The incestuous relationships between Dunhill, Rothmann's, Rosemont, BAT, etal is more convoluted than the Hapsburgs, Bourbons and Romanovs combined. But actually none of that matters since the only salient point is that the blends were pulled out of the US market and then returned after February 15th 2007. As for letting the lawyers duke it out, it would be a lot faster, and a whole lot cheaper, just to pay the SE deeming fees. Please provide a reference to clarify that the blends were pulled from the US market in 2007 to resolve the matter other than heresy. |
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Post by sperrytops on Jul 11, 2019 12:10:45 GMT -5
Maybe I'm reading this wrong or misinterpreting it. It looks like STG brought the Trademarks, which is the names of the blends. It doesn't say the bought the recipes or manufacturing facilities or the rights to recreate the blends. They bought the names to use however they want. Am I wrong? STG actually produced he Dunhill mixtures until the first of the year when it stopped distributing it. I'm guessing they have the rights to produce the same recipes as well. |
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sablebrush52
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Post by sablebrush52 on Jul 11, 2019 12:16:59 GMT -5
The incestuous relationships between Dunhill, Rothmann's, Rosemont, BAT, etal is more convoluted than the Hapsburgs, Bourbons and Romanovs combined. But actually none of that matters since the only salient point is that the blends were pulled out of the US market and then returned after February 15th 2007. As for letting the lawyers duke it out, it would be a lot faster, and a whole lot cheaper, just to pay the SE deeming fees. Please provide a reference to clarify that the blends were pulled from the US market in 2007 to resolve the matter other than heresy. Sure, when I get back home this evening. |
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Post by daveinlax on Jul 11, 2019 13:06:20 GMT -5
I thought Dunhill returned to the US market around 2007. I remember it as Lane never imported Dunhill after production moved to Orlik but I’m not positive about it.  |
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Post by smellthehatfirst on Jul 11, 2019 20:50:31 GMT -5
That's good news. I just bought a tin of the charatan version of emp. I might try the 'new' version of emp and compare both with the old version that I have. Will they still go under the dunhill name? BAT, the cigarette maker, is the company that decided to no longer deal with cigars or pipe tobacco.
Dunhill, the pipemaker and luxury goods vendor, is still happily associated with tobacco. Not least, they recently licensed the Charatan's trademark, which they still own, for use with STG's post-Dunhill blends in the UK.
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sablebrush52
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Post by sablebrush52 on Jul 11, 2019 22:11:20 GMT -5
The incestuous relationships between Dunhill, Rothmann's, Rosemont, BAT, etal is more convoluted than the Hapsburgs, Bourbons and Romanovs combined. But actually none of that matters since the only salient point is that the blends were pulled out of the US market and then returned after February 15th 2007. As for letting the lawyers duke it out, it would be a lot faster, and a whole lot cheaper, just to pay the SE deeming fees. Please provide a reference to clarify that the blends were pulled from the US market in 2007 to resolve the matter other than heresy. !topic/alt.smokers.pipes/bu7QfFCTGEg Evidently Lane announced that they were discontinuing importing Dunhill Pipe Tobaccos as of July 1 2008. I remember reading some discussion of this on ASP. I'm not sure how long the situation lasted, but from the dates of some of these threads, it was quite a while. They even disappeared from the UK. There's more if you want to do a search, but these are fairly typical. Unfortunately, the official announcements that some of the posts offer links to are no longer on the Net. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2019 23:28:17 GMT -5
Yes all I could find was heresy as well. I don't really think General Cigar even cared to mess moving it across the pond. Although at the time of the outage the blends could be had across the big pond. My neighbor at the time was working for Siemens and was bringing me back tins from Germany. It is really unclear if the blends ever stopped being produced and lacked proper distribution or what really happened. This was about the same time that Gwaith became as scarce as teeth on a hen. Interesting to say the least. Thank you for following up Jesse.
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