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Post by lestrout on Sept 18, 2019 22:48:16 GMT -5
I spent a few days ffishing in Montana and found my trusty lighter, which I had just filled before I left home. It sparked via the piezoelectric element and may have been a bit on the weak side. The butane feed was just fine when I used a match to light it, but flicking the lighter as usual didn't get it done. When I got home (altitude maybe a couple of hundred feet in the the outskirts of Philly) the lighter worked just fine. Does anyone have insights on this problem?
hp
les
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Post by just ol ed on Sept 18, 2019 22:57:24 GMT -5
I'd guess the thin air probably to be the problem. No personal experience with that 'tho. Wonder about Zippo with regular fuel have similar. Will be looking forward to other replies
Ed Duncan, Batavia, NY
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Post by trailboss on Sept 18, 2019 23:17:55 GMT -5
Altitude definitely plays a role in the performance of compressed gas performance.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 1:14:04 GMT -5
I would suggest the problem lies with the piezoelectric element the best lighter for higher altitudes use flints. When I was still able to hike the Sierras I would always carry matches, Zippo and a Bic. If you look at climbing and hiking threads they almost all despise the piezoe in stoves and lighters.
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Post by oldcajun123 on Sept 19, 2019 9:28:46 GMT -5
 Probably pressure , take your lighter and put it under arm pit, heating the gas with your body temperature therefore increasing the gas pressure, I believe the Pizzo doesn’t work on pressure but the butane does.
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Post by Ronv69 on Sept 19, 2019 9:37:29 GMT -5
The gas may need to be turned down a little. Less air = less fuel.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 9:43:44 GMT -5
Mount Whitney is 14,505 ft and a Bic works perfect up that high. Just one more reason expensive lighters blow big giant hairy chunks.
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Post by Legend Lover on Sept 19, 2019 10:08:37 GMT -5
I agree that the difference in air pressure / thinner air may be playing a part. Did you bring an alternative source of fire?
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Post by Mac on Sept 19, 2019 10:39:05 GMT -5
At higher levels— altitudes I mean— the pressure of the fuel is increased relative to the atmosphere, and the fuel may be expelled at too high a rate to ignite. But the other comments on the piezo seem more likely.
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Wizard
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Post by Wizard on Sept 19, 2019 16:19:28 GMT -5
Just bring matches next time. The gas was thinner and moving too fast for the spark to ignite it.🧙🏼♂️
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 16:34:31 GMT -5
That about covers all the technical possibilities, how was the fishing?  |
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Post by lestrout on Sept 20, 2019 1:12:15 GMT -5
yo truc - the hoppers were pretty much chilled out, but one stretch had great BWOs and Tricos, and one 3 hour session was the best in my life - and I've done 100+ days on the water since the 70s and a bunch since '57. But I had to work hard to find caddis and other stuff that the trouts would rise to.
hp and tl
les
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 3:34:08 GMT -5
Did they hit on brown? Bugs are not as pretty up that far north but they do have tiny red worms in the river beds.
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Post by smellthehatfirst on Sept 20, 2019 4:29:48 GMT -5
Fluid lighters work fine at high altitude.
Butane lighters can be real finicky. The fellow with the armpit trick knows what's up. Body heat can raise the pressure inside the butane tank high enough to make it work properly, as if it were at sea level.
S.T. Dupont sells "special" torch lighters for high altitude that will work at room temp, but that seems kinda useless for a pipe.
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Post by Mac on Sept 20, 2019 9:09:21 GMT -5
Butane lighters can be real finicky. The fellow with the armpit trick knows what's up. Body heat can raise the pressure inside the butane tank high enough to make it work properly, as if it were at sea level. I'd really like to get the physics right on this. It would seem that at high altitude, the relative pressure of the butane in the tank would be already higher than at sea level. The armpit tip is good when the tank is low or it's real cold outside. So heating the tank would increase the pressure, which would already be above that of sea level. Or is there some other factor I am not accounting for? (Assuming no extremes of temperature at sea level or mountains) |
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Post by oldcajun123 on Sept 20, 2019 9:47:38 GMT -5
Mac as altitude increases atmosmopheric pressure decreases therefore the vapor pressure of the butane decreases therefore heating it up increases the vapor pressure, also you have to turn the gas adjustment higher on your lighter, hope this Cajun explanation makes sense..
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Post by Mac on Sept 20, 2019 14:13:06 GMT -5
Yes, heating it up will increase pressure at any altitude, but my understanding was that if the outside pressure decreases, it effectively increases the pressure of the contents, as it has less resistance to flowing out. Of course, the internal pressure doesn't change from sea level to altitude, but it should act as though it had. Or so I thought from physics classes eons ago.
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Post by crapgame on Sept 25, 2019 5:06:30 GMT -5
Most butane lighters will work well at and above 5000 feet but after 9 or 10,000 feet some start to crap out. High end torches work well up to 13,000 as well as the generic green or yellow bic. That said many survivial experts will suggest that if you plan to camping,hunting of fishing at high altitude that taking a Zippo with extra fuel is the best option in the event that one would get lost because a Zippo will never be affected by altitude.
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Post by Mac on Sept 29, 2019 20:33:30 GMT -5
Yes, heating it up will increase pressure at any altitude, but my understanding was that if the outside pressure decreases, it effectively increases the pressure of the contents, as it has less resistance to flowing out. Of course, the internal pressure doesn't change from sea level to altitude, but it should act as though it had. Or so I thought from physics classes eons ago. Any physics majors, or anyone with a real interest in same? Love another opinion or three on the above. |
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Post by toshtego on Sept 29, 2019 20:58:09 GMT -5
Living at 7,770 feet I have never noticed problems with lighters. I mostly use a Zippo with Zippo fuel.
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Post by trailboss on Sept 29, 2019 23:15:57 GMT -5
If you search out butane or propane performance at high altitudes you can see commonality in complaints from cigar lighter owners, to RV’ers, to backpackers. (10,00 feet +)
When you throw freezing temps in the mix, it really becomes a problem. Never been there myself, Just secondhand complaints from friends.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2019 5:34:37 GMT -5
Butane and Propane don't do well at temps below freezing because it inhibits the ability to vaporize into its gas form . Increasing the flow can lead to the gas icing and this is the sputtering effect. Being in the fifth Wheel we have two nine gallon tanks if the weather goes below 20 degrees the tanks will stop working properly often the tanks will act as if they are empty. Then when you take to filled they only take a gallon or three. They do make a heating blanket that keeps the tanks at 9o degrees the optimal temp for the conversion of liquid to vapor. Propane is fantastic refrigerant because of how it reacts to slight pressure changes. Once that fancy all metal lighter gets cold it is going to take more than just holding it in your armpit for a few minutes for it to work properly. Butane is going to act up at 32 degrees because it has lower boiling point that propane at -42 degrees. No the two gasses are not same and butane is going to be a lot happier in warmer outside temps.
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Probably pressure , take your lighter and put it under arm pit, heating the gas with your body temperature therefore increasing the gas pressure, I believe the Pizzo doesn’t work on pressure but the butane does.
