|
Post by Ronv69 on Nov 9, 2022 23:53:29 GMT -5
I wasn't addressing you, Ron, or anyone else specifically. As I stated, people have the right to be racist. My point is that if someone--you, Ron, or anyone else--says they're against being woke, it will be perceived by the general population as being in favor of ignorance of injustice. I'm well within my rights to call ice cream feces. I don't, because I don't really want people to think I like to sit down and gobble feces with chocolate sauce. It's like "woke Disney." Disney is a corporation beholden to return profits to its shareholders. Period. If someone--not you, personally, Ron--doesn't like seeing minorities portrayed on screen, say, "I don't like seeing minorities portrayed on screen." Words have meaning. They can and do change over time. It's like using "canceled" to mean "called out" for lies or offensive opinions. I've heard people on large platforms whine repeatedly about being canceled, when that is objectively false, because I can still hear and see them. No, you (cripes. Again, not you personally, Ron) are being told that your ideas are offensive. I would suggest that the perception would be by less than 40% of the population. I hate to see black people playing gangsters, but I do like people of a certain race to be portrayed by an actor of that race, or at least close. Anything Sidney Poitier is good. John Wayne as Genghis Khan is awful. I don't like seeing Christians portrayed as hating when I know so many that are loving and accepting. My ideas don't offend people because I don't inflict them on other people, unless they actively provoke me. Any that I otherwise share are things that I think are common sense, which is severely lacking in most media these days.
|
|
|
Post by Ronv69 on Nov 9, 2022 23:57:16 GMT -5
My point is that if someone--says they're against being woke, it will be perceived by the general population as being in favor of ignorance of injustice. I am not sure that is universally true. I think there is a percentage of folks for whom it is true, and there are many who don't interpret the word that way. It is controversial and above my pay grade to sort out I am sure. The perfect world would have only two laws: one being don't bother anyone - and an equally important law against being too easily bothered. Agreed. I've tried to never make anyone's journey harder. Life is tough for everyone. Some choose to be a victim and that is all the excuse they need to blame their bad life on someone else, when it's usually the end result of their life choices. I am ready to help if I can, but I will not be blamed.
|
|
|
Post by terrapinflyer on Nov 10, 2022 8:34:04 GMT -5
OK, so we can make some progress on the whole "woke" thing! Yay! People don't have to be actively racist in order to perpetuate racism (or name another injustice). I'm all too aware of folks who take on the victim role because it's easier than action, but it's the people who are trying to change things for the better who are usually slurred as radical libtard commie &c &c. But here's the thing, if someone supports an unjust system for whatever reason (actual racism, ignorance, hope of personal gain, owning the libs), they are to blame. I certainly feel no guilt that slavery existed in America. I should absolutely feel guilty for not speaking up about how that legacy has reverberated in the present.
America has needed to have honest conversations about these things since its inception, but those in power don't want every day people to do so. They create plausible myths to subjugate those below them and remain in power. Immigrants steal jobs! No, if anyone was replaced by an immigrant, it's because an employer replaced them for their own financial benefit. The Civil War was about states' rights! No, it was about owning other humans, as it is explicit in the confederate constitution that mandated that states must allow slavery. Education is bad! No, but it can bring one awareness of uncomfortable truths. America was founded as Christian nation! No, as explicitly stated in the First Amendment, and Christianity's glaring omission in the Federalist Papers, and the documented variation in the beliefs of the Founders. Republicans are the party of fiscal responsibility! No, every R president in my lifetime has increased the federal deficit and blamed Democrats. Democrats are radical communists! No, they are are center-right on most political spectra, but the far right has pushed the Overton window so far that making the wealthy pay taxes is somehow equated with abolishment of private property. Corporate Marxism! That's not even possible, but we have placed people in power who complain about it. Trans people are delusional! A high school bio class will show that intersex people exist and a 200 level embryogenesis class will refute claims that sex--let alone gender--is strictly binary in humans. CRT is created to make white people guilty! No, it is a way to explore the history of systemic racism in America. Denying that history or the means to explore it is what should make someone feel guilty.
I know to a lot of people, this is made up stuff and that is because we have been celebrating anti intellectualism for so long that myths have become so ingrained that they take on a patina of truthiness. It becomes easier to believe in globalist conspiracies than to see that we have created a system and elected folks of both major parties that hand American wealth to a handful of people who take their cut and then tell you it's a meritocracy and you didn't work hard enough for yours. Or it's that other party giving your money to undeserving poc. Or the Jews took it. Or [insert your personal bugbear] did it.
I'm in no way judging anyone here or elsewhere, but as much as I love America, we have some potentially fatal flaws we just can't ignore. And because I love America I want to make it better for all, not just a handful. When you honestly explore this stuff, you can see the cracks go down to the foundations. When you ignore it, you get political campaigns based on drag queens and ivy leaguers making bank denouncing the elite on outrage TV. Meanwhile American resources, wealth, and labor flows up the pyramid to a few people who are all too happy to have us fight about imaginary litter boxes in school bathrooms and how Jesus was really a laissez faire capitalist and extra judicial killings are a-ok if the victim had a history of drug abuse. It's absolute insanity.
tl;dr our own ignorance is becoming our downfall
|
|
|
Post by Ronv69 on Nov 10, 2022 11:16:02 GMT -5
It's a rough world and life's not fair, never has been and never will be. We are a country that has rejected God and have people deciding for themselves what is right and wrong. Things that have been taboo for the last 60k years are being pushed as normal, to be protected. Stealing is fine and you are a criminal and deserve to die if you don't like it. The respect for the country is so down that they can no longer recruit for the military. This wouldn't be such a problem if it wasn't such a big bad world out there. I believe that your negative views are extreme and probably make you more unhappy because you dwell on them. I really want you to have a good life and not be miserable because the world isn't fair. We do what we can.
|
|
|
Post by jeffd on Nov 10, 2022 11:37:21 GMT -5
"I'm in no way judging anyone here or elsewhere, but..." the "but" in there undermines the rest.
I don't think anyone, especially in this rather more thoughtful group of people (I really believe that) is in favor of deliberately ignoring anyone's present difficulties, anyone's past afflictions. And even anyone's inherited heritage of past afflictions.
Many people, many many people, see woke as like a political correctness, enforced by one group of people not offended themselves, but offended on the behalf of other groups of people, (who may or may not be themselves offended) and attempting to get everyone to feel guilty and responsible (whether they or their whole generation had anything to do with it) for sins perceived by other not involved people.
If we all just dealt with our own personal afflictions, and work on overcoming them, and were careful not to genuinely afflict anyone else, this whole "woke" thing would be far less a controversial thing.
I think I should bow out of this thread for now, as it is about neither smoking nor reading, and I am in danger of embarrassing myself.
If y'all knew how much this group means to me you would laugh at me.
|
|
|
Post by Ronv69 on Nov 10, 2022 11:49:13 GMT -5
"I'm in no way judging anyone here or elsewhere, but..." the "but" in there undermines the rest. I don't think anyone, especially in this rather more thoughtful group of people (I really believe that) is in favor of deliberately ignoring anyone's present difficulties, anyone's past afflictions. And even anyone's inherited heritage of past afflictions. Many people, many many people, see woke as like a political correctness, enforced by one group of people not offended themselves, but offended on the behalf of other groups of people, (who may or may not be themselves offended) and attempting to get everyone to feel guilty and responsible (whether they or their whole generation had anything to do with it) for sins perceived by other not involved people. If we all just dealt with our own personal afflictions, and work on overcoming them, and were careful not to genuinely afflict anyone else, this whole "woke" thing would be far less a controversial thing. I think I should bow out of this thread for now, as it is about neither smoking nor reading, and I am in danger of embarrassing myself. If y'all knew how much this group means to me you would laugh at me. I think it means a lot to most of us. I consider the members as family.
|
|
|
Post by terrapinflyer on Nov 10, 2022 21:05:24 GMT -5
Hey, I respect everyone here and I like most of you! I'm just trying to exchange ideas and I like to learn where others are coming from. I don’t think wanting to make things better for everyone is extreme or negative. I'd like to know why you think that, Ron. It's the essence of Christianity! Turning our back on God is the cause of our problems but living Jesus' instructions is negative? It's the megachurch grifters using Jesus' name in vain who'd crucify him all over again.
I've been living in a seedy hotel for a few weeks with people who have been ground under the wheels. It's probably coloring my mood, but I cannot bring myself to believe that compassion and empathy are bad things.
Anyway, may y'all have peace and a little food for thought if you'll have it.
|
|
|
Post by Ronv69 on Nov 10, 2022 21:48:18 GMT -5
Hey, I respect everyone here and I like most of you! I'm just trying to exchange ideas and I like to learn where others are coming from. I don’t think wanting to make things better for everyone is extreme or negative. I'd like to know why you think that, Ron. It's the essence of Christianity! Turning our back on God is the cause of our problems but living Jesus' instructions is negative? It's the megachurch grifters using Jesus' name in vain who'd crucify him all over again. I've been living in a seedy hotel for a few weeks with people who have been ground under the wheels. It's probably coloring my mood, but I cannot bring myself to believe that compassion and empathy are bad things. Anyway, may y'all have peace and a little food for thought if you'll have it. I think it's actually great to talk about these things. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Most gay and trans people we have known have been very unhappy and we've been as supportive as possible. There's a difference in the gay lifestyle and true love and we've seen true love, but it's hard to have for anyone and especially hard for gay couples.
|
|
|
Post by terrapinflyer on Nov 11, 2022 8:10:56 GMT -5
Hey, I respect everyone here and I like most of you! I'm just trying to exchange ideas and I like to learn where others are coming from. I don’t think wanting to make things better for everyone is extreme or negative. I'd like to know why you think that, Ron. It's the essence of Christianity! Turning our back on God is the cause of our problems but living Jesus' instructions is negative? It's the megachurch grifters using Jesus' name in vain who'd crucify him all over again. I've been living in a seedy hotel for a few weeks with people who have been ground under the wheels. It's probably coloring my mood, but I cannot bring myself to believe that compassion and empathy are bad things. Anyway, may y'all have peace and a little food for thought if you'll have it. I think it's actually great to talk about these things. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Most gay and trans people we have known have been very unhappy and we've been as supportive as possible. There's a difference in the gay lifestyle and true love and we've seen true love, but it's hard to have for anyone and especially hard for gay couples. It's hard for me to believe being gay is a sin, when it is incredibly common in nature and in many human cultures throughout history. It's amazing that folks claim Western Civilization is superior for not allowing thes natural differences, yet ignore that Classical Greece and Rome were gay as heck. Trans emperors, the whole bag. The idea that these things are wrong now began with desert dwellers trying to differentiate themselves from other tribes and increase their population. And Paul trying to grow a religion of Jews and gentiles within his empire, yet distancing it from their norms. It's fairly easy to see why people born gay in a society that condemns them for it might experience some unhappiness. That's why we get insufferable bitches like Lindsay Graham. What is the difference between gay lifestyle and true love? And is there a difference between cishetero lifestyle and true love? There must be an accepted definition of "gay lifestyle," as it is included in a plank in your state's GOP platform. And why is it harder for gay people to find true love? (I can certainly argue that it's sometimes harder to express that love because of societal prejudice. I have to be hyperaware of my surroundings just to hold my wife's hand or kiss her cheek in public. I've been with her exclusively for over 30 years. It's as true as love gets.) Is gay marriage a gay lifestyle? Is it inferior to "Biblical marriage" (one man, one woman and as many other wives and concubines as the man desires?) Does the story of David and Jonathan illustrate a gay lifestyle or true love? Same question for Jesus' beloved disciple.
|
|
|
Post by Ronv69 on Nov 11, 2022 9:15:07 GMT -5
You ask ALL of the difficult questions, and I'm probably not the one who can best answer them. But, from my personal observations of the many gay people and couples we have known, it's a negative lifestyle. "Gay" is a misnomer especially after the age of 35 or so. 90 of our gay friends died in the AIDS epidemic, and none of them are in long term relationships even in their 60s. I do know that it can happen, but I haven't personally observed it. Probably about 20 of our friends are still alive and although we haven't seen Danny in a decade, we will have a hugging competition when we meet again. I hear you. My first friend killed himself at 19 years old because of his dad. We should probably take this private from here on.
|
|
|
Post by mgtarheel on Nov 11, 2022 10:28:39 GMT -5
"Ronin" by Edward W. Robertson
|
|
|
Post by terrapinflyer on Nov 11, 2022 10:28:55 GMT -5
Ha, asking and answering difficult questions is how we grow. You know where my inbox is, if you're so inclined.
|
|
|
Post by mgtarheel on Nov 12, 2022 13:56:07 GMT -5
"Freefall" by Edward W. Robertson
|
|
Zach
Pro Member
If you can't send money, send tobacco.
Posts: 4,358
First Name: Zach
Favorite Pipe: Too many currently, bound to change
Favorite Tobacco: Haunted Bookshop, Big 'N' Burley, Pegasus, Habana Daydream, OJK, Rum Twist, FVF, Escudo, Orlik Golden Sliced, Kendal Flake, Ennerdale
Location:
|
Post by Zach on Nov 12, 2022 20:24:06 GMT -5
Recently finished Virtual Light by William Gibson.
Just started on Ray Bradbury's A Graveyard for Lunatics
|
|
|
Post by Ronv69 on Nov 18, 2022 10:01:02 GMT -5
Just finished "The Girl Who Drank the Moon". A beautiful fairytale. Starting The Lost Metal soon.
|
|
|
Post by mgtarheel on Nov 18, 2022 16:50:26 GMT -5
"Stardust" by Edward W. Robertson
|
|
|
Post by Ronv69 on Nov 19, 2022 11:27:35 GMT -5
"Stardust" by Edward W. Robertson Another excellent story.
|
|
|
Post by toshtego on Nov 19, 2022 20:23:52 GMT -5
"Stardust" by Edward W. Robertson Another excellent story. It was a great song!!!!
|
|
|
Post by toshtego on Nov 19, 2022 20:27:38 GMT -5
Still marching through "The 100 Years War" with Bernard Cornwell, Thomas of Hookton, Will Skeat, and other notables.
Now, I do not encourage anyone to visit this sad era of death and destruction unless there is an interest in Archery.
Man, these 14th Century French, English, Scots, Welsh, and Italians were shites! Mean mothers!
|
|
|
Post by Plainsman on Nov 23, 2022 19:40:05 GMT -5
Anthony Bourdain, MEDIUM RAW. I really miss this guy.
|
|
|
Post by Plainsman on Nov 24, 2022 22:21:00 GMT -5
Anthony Bourdain, MEDIUM RAW. I really miss this guy. Just finished this. Missing him even more after this. Highly recommended.
|
|
|
Post by trailboss on Nov 24, 2022 23:00:02 GMT -5
Imprimis from Hilsdale college, always a good read.
|
|
|
Post by Ronv69 on Nov 24, 2022 23:02:47 GMT -5
Anthony Bourdain, MEDIUM RAW. I really miss this guy. Just finished this. Missing him even more after this. Highly recommended. I would like to read it, but it would be too painful.
|
|
|
Post by Plainsman on Nov 25, 2022 8:34:27 GMT -5
Cranky. Irreverent. Profane. Angry. Antagonistic Iconoclastic. Opinionated. What’s not to like?
|
|
|
Post by trailboss on Nov 25, 2022 9:47:57 GMT -5
Read some reviews, it looks like an interesting read, so I picked up a copy. Hard to beat the $5.00 price and free shipping @ Abebooks.
|
|
|
Post by Darin on Nov 30, 2022 10:33:04 GMT -5
I just breezed through some history of the Pitcairn Island / Mutiny on the Bounty. Fascinating and disturbing but made me want to learn more.
|
|
|
Post by Plainsman on Nov 30, 2022 11:37:42 GMT -5
DOG IS LOVE (Subtitle: “Why and how your dog loves you”) by Clive Byrne, PhD. Not nearly as soppy as it sounds, this is a very complex scientific study of the subject. It refutes pretty well the hypothesis that “love” has nothing to do with our relationship with our canine pals. I found it most interesting, as well as convincing.
|
|
|
Post by Plainsman on Nov 30, 2022 11:42:02 GMT -5
Currently reading CADFAEL’S PENANCE by Ellis Peters. Peters does a marvelous job of evoking the period of the civil war between Maud and Stephen, as well as the monastic life of Cadfael and his brother monks. He’s always very good at the action details of the period. This is about the 20th of the Cadfael series that I have read . I recommend them.
|
|
|
Post by toshtego on Nov 30, 2022 13:21:18 GMT -5
Currently reading CADFAEL’S PENANCE by Ellis Peters. Peters does a marvelous job of evoking the period of the civil war between Maud and Stephen, as well as the monastic life of Cadfael and his brother monks. He’s always very good at the action details of the period. This is about the 20th of the Cadfael series that I have read . I recommend them. I tired reading one of that series but found it dull. Much prefer the period tales as told by Bernard Cornwell.
|
|
|
Post by mgtarheel on Nov 30, 2022 17:24:42 GMT -5
"Fire & Blood" by George R.R. Martin
|
|