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Post by Dramatwist on Sept 18, 2018 22:02:03 GMT -5
Usually the problem of a wet dottle is tobacco not fully dried, and/or high ambient humidity. Don't worry about burning the bottom of a briar bowl. The low heat of the last bit of tobacco will have no effect whatsoever. Briar is tough, that's why it's used. I've been smoking until every bit of tobac is burned for 50 years. I smoke until it won't light anymore. Very interesting, because every pipe restorer I've spoken to about this says the exact opposite. In fact, Tim West told me explicitly that trying to burn those last few threads could cause damage to the chamber walls over time. Because it's not just the last few threads, but the heat buildup from making that effort to burn the whole load that does in a pipe. Sure briar's tough, but it's not a magic substance from the planet Mongo. It's wood. Exactly... but, hey, if it works for you, go for it... not my pipes... |
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Post by smellthehatfirst on Sept 18, 2018 22:19:14 GMT -5
I am detecting a distressing lack of love for Hanna's "air pocket." Seriously, folks, try it. You'll be glad you did. I rarely use it with ribbon-cut, because my old idiosyncratic methods work well, but it has been a yuuuuuge win for me on my flake game. I have accomplished an air pocket only a few times on accident. They were good smokes, but I ended up with baccy in the bottom anyway as a result of tamping. My flake game is pretty solid and good old fold and stuff rarely lets me down. Well, yeah, that means you did it right!
Hanna hits this in his original essay. You count on tobacco eventually hitting bottom, but by then, everything is burning pretty evenly. |
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Post by Dramatwist on Sept 18, 2018 22:21:28 GMT -5
I have accomplished an air pocket only a few times on accident. They were good smokes, but I ended up with baccy in the bottom anyway as a result of tamping. My flake game is pretty solid and good old fold and stuff rarely lets me down. Well, yeah, that means you did it right!
Hanna hits this in his original essay. You count on tobacco eventually hitting bottom, but by then, everything is burning pretty evenly. ... you might consider providing a link to Hanna... |
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Post by smellthehatfirst on Sept 18, 2018 22:25:51 GMT -5
Well, yeah, that means you did it right!
Hanna hits this in his original essay. You count on tobacco eventually hitting bottom, but by then, everything is burning pretty evenly. ... you might consider providing a link to Hanna... I can't. The essay was in an '07 issue of P&T, which is not online. I did link and quote a summary of his essay in my first post in this thread.
I don't know if P&T took their archives offline on purpose or not, but I really enjoyed Hanna's book.
edit: here is a link directly to the first post, which contains the summary of the "air pocket" method. |
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Post by unknownpipesmoker on Sept 18, 2018 22:37:19 GMT -5
Savinelli actually has a little note about pipesmoking in the world biz of every new pipe.
It says something of the nature of, if tobacco at the very bottom of the bowl won't stay lit due to moisture or loses its taste appeal due to smoke residue, just dump it out. It's a small amount and not a big deal.
With proper technique and practice you should be able to narrow this down to around an eighth or even a sixteenth of a bowl
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Post by kxg on Sept 18, 2018 22:39:59 GMT -5
I got Hanna’s book on Kindle unlimited, that was a nice surprise.
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Post by blackmouth210 on Sept 18, 2018 23:18:41 GMT -5
So nobody takes the dottle and spreads it out over their hearth for drying? It makes a wonderful first-pipe-of-the-day smoke the following morning according to one Mr. Holmes.
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Post by peteguy on Sept 18, 2018 23:19:55 GMT -5
Dump it and stop fretting over spilt baccy. If it is one of those McClelland blends that are $100 an ounce use a cob.  |
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Post by slowroll on Sept 19, 2018 0:03:48 GMT -5
Usually the problem of a wet dottle is tobacco not fully dried, and/or high ambient humidity. Don't worry about burning the bottom of a briar bowl. The low heat of the last bit of tobacco will have no effect whatsoever. Briar is tough, that's why it's used. I've been smoking until every bit of tobac is burned for 50 years. I smoke until it won't light anymore. Very interesting, because every pipe restorer I've spoken to about this says the exact opposite. In fact, Tim West told me explicitly that trying to burn those last few threads could cause damage to the chamber walls over time. Because it's not just the last few threads, but the heat buildup from making that effort to burn the whole load that does in a pipe. Sure briar's tough, but it's not a magic substance from the planet Mongo. It's wood. I'm not saying to struggle for the last strand for crissake. BTW, I've restored a lot of pipes , made quite a few and smoked quite a few over 50 years and never came close to damaging a pipe. Most burn damage occurs from laying it on its side when lit/hot or trying to light ashes with a torch. |
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Post by Legend Lover on Sept 19, 2018 3:25:35 GMT -5
Thanks for your responses. I've tried the air pocket method and it works. I normally use the Franke method, but I pack light.
A lot of people said that it's not the pipe, it's my packing, but then others have said they also dump about a third or quarter of the bowl.
Does that mean they don't pack correctly either? I've heard a few in other threads mention that they dump the dottle but I've never heard people say their packing is wrong.
And if I'm not packing correctly, how come in my cobs there's never any dottle and I smoke right to the bottom? I know cobs absorb the moisture better so does that mean that I'm packing badly in my cob too, but the cob is correcting my mistake?
When I get near the bottom of a cob, the tobacco is dry and crispy almost. When I get near the bottom of a briar, the tobacco is sodden.
I just find it interesting. It's not a big deal. I'd prefer to smoke my tobacco rather than dump it.
Maybe it IS my packing....
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Post by slowroll on Sept 19, 2018 7:00:16 GMT -5
Paddy, I suspect the issue is not your packing, but the humidity in Ireland and the moisture level of the tobac plus to an extent the cellulose content of the tobac, which determines the amount of moisture the tobac generates by burning hydrogen (but you knew that, you're a chemist). Cobs and briars are different, and sometimes one gets to the bottom of the bowl, and sometimes not. Doesn't really matter, after all.
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Post by beardedmi on Sept 19, 2018 7:03:02 GMT -5
You know its hard telling without using the calibrated specialty tool, the fingertip. The biggest point is.. experiment and figure out what works for you and whether you want to smoke to the bottom in your briars. We're all just pulling ideas from what we've experienced on our own journey. Lol stop overthinking and enjoy.
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haveldad
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Post by haveldad on Sept 19, 2018 8:28:10 GMT -5
Lighter pack Drier baccy Delightful smoke just my $0.02 As to the whole "Fine White Ash" line of thinkin? I've noticed that when I try to accomplish this I end up with a mouth full of ashes.... Yuck I have some dottle almost every time. Perfectly acceptable trade off for not having ashes in my mouth. ;-) What this gentleman said. All the way to ash is a quick way to nasty ashes in my mouth. I always lose about 1/4th of my bowls in my huge bowl pipes just due to moisture build-up. Smaller pipes I tend to lose a lot less since the smoke is faster and builds up less moisture at the bottom. |
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Post by Legend Lover on Sept 19, 2018 8:37:44 GMT -5
After thinking a little more (what's more than overthinking???) I remember that my Lorenzo Spitfire is the one briar pipe where this doesn't happen. And when I think about it, it's my only filtered briar pipe, and I use a filter with my cobs, so I'm thinking it's possibly mostly to the moisture in my breath (or drool). The filter is catching this and keeping it from the tobacco. At least, that's my story. I've stopped thinking about it for now.  |
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haveldad
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Post by haveldad on Sept 19, 2018 8:56:46 GMT -5
After thinking a little more (what's more than overthinking???) I remember that my Lorenzo Spitfire is the one briar pipe where this doesn't happen. And when I think about it, it's my only filtered briar pipe, and I use a filter with my cobs, so I'm thinking it's possibly mostly to the moisture in my breath (or drool). The filter is catching this and keeping it from the tobacco. At least, that's my story. I've stopped thinking about it for now. How many smokes till you swap your filters? |
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Post by Legend Lover on Sept 19, 2018 9:19:58 GMT -5
After thinking a little more (what's more than overthinking???) I remember that my Lorenzo Spitfire is the one briar pipe where this doesn't happen. And when I think about it, it's my only filtered briar pipe, and I use a filter with my cobs, so I'm thinking it's possibly mostly to the moisture in my breath (or drool). The filter is catching this and keeping it from the tobacco. At least, that's my story. I've stopped thinking about it for now. How many smokes till you swap your filters? I change them every time. |
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Post by smellthehatfirst on Sept 19, 2018 9:39:05 GMT -5
After thinking a little more (what's more than overthinking???) I remember that my Lorenzo Spitfire is the one briar pipe where this doesn't happen. And when I think about it, it's my only filtered briar pipe, and I use a filter with my cobs, so I'm thinking it's possibly mostly to the moisture in my breath (or drool). The filter is catching this and keeping it from the tobacco. At least, that's my story. I've stopped thinking about it for now. Don't be so hasty to blame yourself. There's a huge amount of moisture that boils out of the tobacco itself. The question is where it condenses, and how it finds its way out of your pipe.
I don't smoke filter pipes, so I am fond of the "air pocket" (to force condensation inside the bowl, rather than plugging the airway) and I fling moisture out of the pipe whenever it starts to smoke "wet" |
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Post by Legend Lover on Sept 19, 2018 9:39:42 GMT -5
After thinking a little more (what's more than overthinking???) I remember that my Lorenzo Spitfire is the one briar pipe where this doesn't happen. And when I think about it, it's my only filtered briar pipe, and I use a filter with my cobs, so I'm thinking it's possibly mostly to the moisture in my breath (or drool). The filter is catching this and keeping it from the tobacco. At least, that's my story. I've stopped thinking about it for now. Don't be so hasty to blame yourself. There's a huge amount of moisture that boils out of the tobacco itself. The question is where it condenses, and how it finds its way out of your pipe.
I don't smoke filter pipes, so I am fond of the "air pocket" (to force condensation inside the bowl, rather than plugging the airway) and I fling moisture out of the pipe whenever it starts to smoke "wet" I forgot to say, I appreciate you posting the instructions on that. Thank you. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 10:19:27 GMT -5
I never have the goop prob with cube cut...i can smoke that to ash... Same here although my experience is limited to two - Uhle's Perfection Plug and 300. I can mindlessly gravity feed and smoke both down to ash with perhaps a tamp or two in an MM Country Gent, Diplomat or even a General. The funny thing about that one is problems with cube cut I've read are associated with it not burning evenly; consequently, my assumption would be striking gold depends on the tobacco, pipe and moisture content as I've never experienced these issues. |
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Screaming Jazz
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Post by Screaming Jazz on Sept 19, 2018 12:51:27 GMT -5
I've noticed that I'm dumping between a quarter and a third of a bowl of tobacco (dottle) when I smoke in a briar pipe. When I smoke my cob I pretty much dump only ash. I wonder why I bother smoking a briar pipe. The reason is I like the look and feel of it. I noticed someone had in their signature something like, 'if cobs looked good we wouldn't need briars.' Obviously that's not everyone's sentiment, but I can certainly relate to that. My goal is to modify a cob so that it looks like a briar pipe. Andre, maybe you're afraid of burning the bottom of your briar bowl? Thus mentally, you're leaving between 1/4 and 1/3 of pipe tobacco (maybe)? Just a thought. I know its not a big deal to lightly char the bottom of a cob (cheap and easily replaceable), and thus, you tend to ash the contents of your bowl. I do the same with my briar too. I just don't want to burn the bottom of a fairly decent briar, and as a result, I probably tap out around a 1/4 of the bowl. Not a biggy to me. So... Go have yourself a sausage roll and a cup of tea. You deserve it brother!  I'm not really afraid of burning the bottom, but I feel the same about it not being a big loss. I pack a bowl, smoke it, and when I'm done I'm done. I don't need to make sure I burn all of the oh so precious tobacco. I got my enjoyment out of it and so what if I lost half a gram of tobacco. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 13:05:34 GMT -5
I never think about it, as over-analysis leads to paralysis, and I don't like cob pipes, I'm just getting too old to care about the details. Never thought I would get this way.
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Post by Ronv69 on Sept 19, 2018 13:38:40 GMT -5
I hate threads that talk about how to pack your pipe. It will mess me up for a month until I forget everything I've read and just start doing it without thinking again.
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Post by haebar on Sept 19, 2018 14:03:52 GMT -5
I usually stop smoking my cigars about an inch from the end. The tars build up in the last portion and often make it unpalatable.
Most people don't smoke all of the tobacco in their cigarettes. It is great that you have found that cobs will smoke all of the tobacco in the bowl - I hadn't noticed that. I just assumed that some waste was inevitable.
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Post by Legend Lover on Sept 19, 2018 14:04:18 GMT -5
I actually haven't been thinking about this much at all. It popped into my head as I was going to bed last night and I thought it might make good discussion. So I started the thread and went to sleep. I woke up to some good discussion. That said, dumping a third of a bowl might be pennies to you - it's pounds to me! |
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Screaming Jazz
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Post by Screaming Jazz on Sept 19, 2018 14:18:46 GMT -5
I actually haven't been thinking about this much at all. It popped into my head as I was going to bed last night and I thought it might make good discussion. So I started the thread and went to sleep. I woke up to some good discussion. That said, dumping a third of a bowl might be pennies to you - it's pounds to me! Definitely a worthwhile thread to start!  |
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Screaming Jazz
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Post by Screaming Jazz on Sept 19, 2018 14:20:49 GMT -5
You could always get yourself an Aristocob  Alternatively, have you tried the "air pocket" method ? I first ran into it in Hanna's book, a compendium of his essays from P&T magazine in the 1990s. It has been hugely helpful to me. I get a dryer smoke with less dottle, and I built the much-vaunted "heel cake" for the first time in my life. Unfortunately the original Hanna essay doesn't seem to be online. There is, however, a summary in a PDF I dug up on google: us.v-cdn.net/6029410/uploads/editor/ch/4vhb0cgqwmyc.pdfWhen you do the air pocket, it will feel surprisingly firm, like it will be impossibly tight. But if you did it right, when you go to draw on it, it will draw like the bowl is empty. You've recommended this a thousand times. I gotta give it a try soon. My only problem with it is that I like some tightness in my draw. I like the feel of pulling a little weight with my breathe. I know it's supposed to be like sucking through an empty pipe, but would it still work if I gave it a touch of resistance? |
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sablebrush52
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Post by sablebrush52 on Sept 19, 2018 16:59:55 GMT -5
Very interesting, because every pipe restorer I've spoken to about this says the exact opposite. In fact, Tim West told me explicitly that trying to burn those last few threads could cause damage to the chamber walls over time. Because it's not just the last few threads, but the heat buildup from making that effort to burn the whole load that does in a pipe. Sure briar's tough, but it's not a magic substance from the planet Mongo. It's wood. I'm not saying to struggle for the last strand for crissake. BTW, I've restored a lot of pipes , made quite a few and smoked quite a few over 50 years and never came close to damaging a pipe. Most burn damage occurs from laying it on its side when lit/hot or trying to light ashes with a torch. Maybe not, but that was the import of your post, "Don't worry about burning the bottom of a briar bowl. The low heat of the last bit of tobacco will have no effect whatsoever." And people who restore pipes professionally happen to disagree with you because there's plenty of heat involved getting down to that last little bit. I've cleaned up many pipes, but I would never claim to be a restorer. Restoration is a lot more than making a pipe look pretty, or cutting a new stem. To give those interested an idea of what a restorer does, check out this latest video series from George Dibos: www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFwwtvtKlXW-PdYLWG0oJT7BmJHaxYY6Jand this isn't near the trickiest restoration George has done. George has been making a series of videos about different restoration techniques so that what he's learned over the years, breathing new life into some of the rarest and finest pipes made, doesn't die with him. It's a wonderful gift from someone who many top collectors consider the finest restorer in the field. The damage that gets done to many pipes isn't even visible. Smokers aren't even aware of it. It's the fissures and cracks that form around the lower walls of the chamber, mostly hidden by that layer of cake, caused by too much heat generated by smokers trying to burn every scrap. Here are a few pictures that I was able to find and post: pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/clean-your-briar-pipes-the-new-way#post-1169139IIRC there were pictures of cross sections in In Search Of Pipe Dreams as well which show more extensive fissuring. And there have been others posted on the Web for those inclined to look for them. It's a testament to the toughness of Briar that it can withstand this kind of abuse and still function. But that doesn't mean there isn't damage or that eventually the pipe won't fail structurally. And this kind of issue isn't rare, according to the restorers I've conversed with over the years. A pipe chamber is essentially a cauldron for simmering tobacco. All that heat is being drawn down to get to that final bit at the bottom of the bowl. What "low heat"? |
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Post by Legend Lover on Sept 19, 2018 17:04:31 GMT -5
I'm not saying to struggle for the last strand for crissake. BTW, I've restored a lot of pipes , made quite a few and smoked quite a few over 50 years and never came close to damaging a pipe. Most burn damage occurs from laying it on its side when lit/hot or trying to light ashes with a torch. Maybe not, but that was the import of your post, "Don't worry about burning the bottom of a briar bowl. The low heat of the last bit of tobacco will have no effect whatsoever." And people who restore pipes professionally happen to disagree with you because there's plenty of heat involved getting down to that last little bit. I've cleaned up many pipes, but I would never claim to be a restorer. Restoration is a lot more than making a pipe look pretty, or cutting a new stem. To give those interested an idea of what a restorer does, check out this latest video series from George Dibos: www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFwwtvtKlXW-PdYLWG0oJT7BmJHaxYY6Jand this isn't near the trickiest restoration George has done. George has been making a series of videos about different restoration techniques so that what he's learned over the years, breathing new life into some of the rarest and finest pipes made, doesn't die with him. It's a wonderful gift from someone who many top collectors consider the finest restorer in the field. The damage that gets done to many pipes isn't even visible. Smokers aren't even aware of it. It's the fissures and cracks that form around the lower walls of the chamber, mostly hidden by that layer of cake, caused by too much heat generated by smokers trying to burn every scrap. Here are a few pictures that I was able to find and post: pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/clean-your-briar-pipes-the-new-way#post-1169139IIRC there were pictures of cross sections in In Search Of Pipe Dreams as well which show more extensive fissuring. And there have been others posted on the Web for those inclined to look for them. It's a testament to the toughness of Briar that it can withstand this kind of abuse and still function. But that doesn't mean there isn't damage or that eventually the pipe won't fail structurally. And this kind of issue isn't rare, according to the restorers I've conversed with over the years. A pipe chamber is essentially a cauldron for simmering tobacco. All that heat is being drawn down to get to that final bit at the bottom of the bowl. What "low heat"? Interesting stuff. I suppose what also adds to the mix is if you're trying to relight when you're at the bottom, in which case you'd be pretty much drawing the flame right onto to the wood. Do that over time and I'd say you may have issues. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 17:21:31 GMT -5
Damn. All I say is greatest post on any board I've ever read. |
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Post by morallynomadic on Sept 19, 2018 17:31:39 GMT -5
Well my thoughts on the same problem are that I don't worry too much about it. I often smoke on my way to work and pack a little too much tobacco in the bowl and can't finish it before I head in. I find that dumping the last little bit is less worrisome than finishing my pipe with ten minutes till the start of my shift, so I over pack sometimes. I think that in your case it sounds like you're a wet smoker, based on cobs and filters mitigating the presence of dottle. I say just stop using briars or at the very least, expect it to happen with briar pipes. I stopped expecting my briar pipes to perform as well as my cobs a while ago. Briar is just much more finicky than cobs. Nature of the beast and whatnot. As a final thought, as it pertains to the damage caused by certain smoking behaviors, if your goal isn't to have a pipe last two hundred years, don't worry about it. I haven't ever had a pipe wear out on me, but I know they can and I am okay with it. There is no right way to smoke your pipe. So long as you are enjoying it, traditional thinking and practice be damned. I think I posted it somewhere else on this forum before but I'll post it again. Here is a picture of one of my father's walking around/it's cold enough outside to freeze your snot when you breathe pipes: i.imgur.com/47UaeWI.jpg |
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