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Post by Ronv69 on Jun 5, 2021 23:23:36 GMT -5
When I had my M1 all you could get was FMJ ammo. We used to shoot oil drums full of water and it penetrated both sides. The M1 has twice the muzzle energy of a 357 and 50% more than a 44 Magnum. with the right bullets I would say that it's more than adequate for small deer at less than 100 yards. But as far as I know it is still illegal for hunting in Texas. I personally wouldn't use anything less than a 30-30, but that's just me. I have never seen a ballistics table which reported the .30 Carbine has having twice the muzzle energy of the .44 magnum. Rather, the reverse is what I have noted. Well, regardless I would much prefer to use the 44. I old and hold to the old Taylor Knockout Formula. 30 Carbine = 8.4 44 Mag = 22.2 45/70 Express = 49.7 30.06 = 21.5. I know that everyone has debunked this, but it was based on an experianced hunters real life experience. |
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Post by trailboss on Jun 5, 2021 23:37:19 GMT -5
One thing to keep in mind, the ammo of yesteryear is often not the same as now. Case in point is the 9mm, with the advancements in propellants and projectiles, it has come a long way and I have witnessed ballistic gel tests where the 9mm is on par with the .45 and I have total confidence in that round. My speed in follow up shots and increased capacity make it a better choice for self defense.
Ammo makers like Buffalo Bore have increased the potential of the .30 carbine round to be far more effective than the original loads designed for the carbine. Obviously, it isn’t the perfect tool for every job, but it certainly has it’s place.
You can shoot small game and it effectively stops 2 legged game well also.
“No less an authority than Jim Cirillo of the New York Police Department’s Stakeout Squad hailed the .30 Carbine as one of the most effective man-stopping cartridges available (when using hollow-points) and stated that the M1 Carbine was one of his favorite weapons.”
Jim Cirillo knew a thing or two about taking out the trash.
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Post by Ronv69 on Jun 6, 2021 0:10:54 GMT -5
Well, I like the 45. I have one to play with. Both my EDC and my nightstand guns are loaded with 9mm 124gr +p JHP. That said, if I was caught with my 45 loaded with 230gr FMJs I would not feel undergunned. I can shoot both well.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 0:11:14 GMT -5
USGI for $550.00 at the CMP Ron. Well at least in 2006 that was the case.   I remember getting one from the NRA...way back for $25.00...this was after the Korean Conflict was over. Had a 30 round clip and stripper clips for the rounds...anyone else remember that? My grandfather had an M1. He may have gotten it from the NRA, as he was a member. |
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Post by Ronv69 on Jun 6, 2021 0:13:23 GMT -5
I remember getting one from the NRA...way back for $25.00...this was after the Korean Conflict was over. Had a 30 round clip and stripper clips for the rounds...anyone else remember that? My grandfather had an M1. He may have gotten it from the NRA, as he was a member. I picked up a Winchester M1 around 79 from a guy at work for 125 bucks. I had fun with it for a year and I sold it back to him for the same amount. The ammunition for it was very expensive back then. I finally found my M1 magazines if anyone wants them. 15 and 30 rounds I think. |
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Post by trailboss on Jun 6, 2021 0:46:47 GMT -5
Well, I like the 45. I have one to play with. Both my EDC and my nightstand guns are loaded with 9mm 124gr +p JHP. That said, if I was caught with my 45 loaded with 230gr FMJs I would not feel undergunned. I can shoot both well. I agree, what platform works for you and what you have the most confidence in is what is in your best interest. In my earlier post I should have said that about my choice. I know what Chuck Connors would prefer!😉 I posted this some time back, it makes you want to always have a rifle on hand, quite an amazing ordeal, and quite an interview. 50 minutes well spent listening to it. thebriarpatchforum.com/thread/5605/walther-ppks?page=2&scrollTo=184031Edit: On a mobile device, it doesn’t scroll to the post... If you guys get a chance, listen to the Bob Stasch interview, he has been in 14 gun fights....he is a former colleague of my buddy that is an LEO in the greater Phoenix area. Chances are none of us will ever face one of the gunfights that he was in, but it really makes you think about being prepared. Massad Ayoob interview: www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/02/17/interview-bob-stasch-chicago-pd-veteran-14-gunfights/He talks about a guy he encountered... Bobs partner; Unloaded 6-45 long Colt .45 Silver Point HP point blank into the guy 5-.38 Federal 158 grain lead HP +P into the guy Bob: Shot a S&W Model 29...44 Magnum 240 grain semi-jacketed flat-tops, medium velocity. 4 Rounds upper torso 1- thigh 1- kneecap the 5'7 pound perp that weighed 143 pounds took 15 gunshot wounds, and still survived for 10 days before his ticket get's punched...the guy was far below being legally drunk, no drugs in his system. I doubt that nay of us will ever face such a guy, but no one ever regretted having too much ammo/firepower after a gunfight. |
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Post by Ronv69 on Jun 6, 2021 8:22:58 GMT -5
I have a 450 Bushmaster that stays behind the bedroom door. Is that a good enough rifle?😜🤠
It's loaded with the ARX anti-personel ammo, but it only holds 5 shots.
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Post by toshtego on Jun 6, 2021 8:42:16 GMT -5
Well, I like the 45. I have one to play with. Both my EDC and my nightstand guns are loaded with 9mm 124gr +p JHP. That said, if I was caught with my 45 loaded with 230gr FMJs I would not feel undergunned. I can shoot both well. I agree, what platform works for you and what you have the most confidence in is what is in your best interest. In my earlier post I should have said that about my choice. I know what Chuck Connors would prefer!😉 I posted this some time back, it makes you want to always have a rifle on hand, quite an amazing ordeal, and quite an interview. 50 minutes well spent listening to it. thebriarpatchforum.com/thread/5605/walther-ppks?page=2&scrollTo=184031Edit: On a mobile device, it doesn’t scroll to the post... If you guys get a chance, listen to the Bob Stasch interview, he has been in 14 gun fights....he is a former colleague of my buddy that is an LEO in the greater Phoenix area. Chances are none of us will ever face one of the gunfights that he was in, but it really makes you think about being prepared. Massad Ayoob interview: www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/02/17/interview-bob-stasch-chicago-pd-veteran-14-gunfights/He talks about a guy he encountered... Bobs partner; Unloaded 6-45 long Colt .45 Silver Point HP point blank into the guy 5-.38 Federal 158 grain lead HP +P into the guy Bob: Shot a S&W Model 29...44 Magnum 240 grain semi-jacketed flat-tops, medium velocity. 4 Rounds upper torso 1- thigh 1- kneecap the 5'7 pound perp that weighed 143 pounds took 15 gunshot wounds, and still survived for 10 days before his ticket get's punched...the guy was far below being legally drunk, no drugs in his system. I doubt that nay of us will ever face such a guy, but no one ever regretted having too much ammo/firepower after a gunfight. No reflection on you, Charlie, but I do not believe that story. It just does not seem, possible that many rounds would have missed all vital spots in that small of a body. |
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Post by Plainsman on Jun 6, 2021 9:03:45 GMT -5
There is NO one solve-all ballistic formula for predicting down-range impact results. They have all been debunked in one way or another. But the Taylor KO formula prevents a stainless-steel needle at 15,000FPS from beating out a 357 Magnum. Formulas that do not take into account bullet diameter and construction are pretty much worthless. Even with those factors accounted for, no formula can predict a gunfight outcome.
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Post by Ronv69 on Jun 6, 2021 9:13:55 GMT -5
There is NO one solve-all ballistic formula for predicting down-range impact results. They have all been debunked in one way or another. But the Taylor KO formula prevents a stainless-steel needle at 15,000FPS from beating out a 357 Magnum. Formulas that do not take into account bullet diameter and construction are pretty much worthless. Even with those factors accounted for, no formula can predict a gunfight outcome. This! ^^^👍 |
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Post by trailboss on Jun 6, 2021 11:07:04 GMT -5
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Post by Ronv69 on Jun 6, 2021 11:47:23 GMT -5
It's interesting that the police missed 24 times and hit the victim at least once. |
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Post by trailboss on Jun 6, 2021 11:54:13 GMT -5
Somehow down the line in this thread, that quote from the article I posted was twisted. Admittedly I am not an ammo load geek, the article was an old one that I thought made a good point about the use of the gun for home defense.
But here is a reminder of what the article stated.
“ Ballistically, the M1 carbine's little .30 Carbine cartridge packs about 2.5 times the kinetic energy of a standard .45 ACP or 9mm load fired from a pistol. This is solidly in the energy territory of the .44 Mag.”
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Post by trailboss on Jun 6, 2021 11:57:30 GMT -5
It's interesting that the police missed 24 times and hit the victim at least once. Not unusual. A lot of cops only shoot on range qualification day, and aren’t required to do a run and gun like Gunsite puts a shooter through. What is sometimes worse is asking a cop legal advice on firearms, justification, etc…. |
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Post by Plainsman on Jun 6, 2021 12:28:27 GMT -5
FACT: The 30 M1 carbine with proper ammunition and in the hands of a competent shooter is an excellent home-defense weapon.
But we keep wandering off in the weeds of iffy specs and apples-and-oranges. The military 30 carbine round produces 955FPE. A modern soft-point or HP about the same. We don’t usually choose a “standard” 45 Auto round— whatever “standard” means. We would choose something like a 185grHP which would give us 534FPE. Not really fair to choose Worst and Best and then “compare them.” Best-against-best produces produces two really fine close-range defensive options.
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Post by trailboss on Jun 6, 2021 13:39:14 GMT -5
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Post by Plainsman on Jun 6, 2021 14:26:28 GMT -5
Now show us BB specs for 45 Auto.
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Post by trailboss on Jun 6, 2021 14:50:19 GMT -5
Buffalo Bore lists the .45 as 461-490 fpe. ballistics101.com/45_acp.phpThat same manufacturer lists the .44 magnum in the 1500 fpe neighborhood. None of the rounds I would consider anemic, all of them have their place, none would I want to be shot with, but one can make the case in a home defense scenario that over penetration can bring on collateral damage. Maybe not an issue if you live alone out in the sticks, but if you have someone in the next room it can be something one should consider. I do have an M1 carbine on the wife’s side of the room, but I am grabbing my M4 if I hear things go bump in the night. For me it is the best choice… and in the end, that is what really matters. |
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Post by Ronv69 on Jun 6, 2021 18:22:59 GMT -5
That 45 ACP is really a wimpy cartridge! 😁
It's a lot easier to hit the target with the M1 than with a pistol. My Marlin 9mm carbine is so dirty that it fails to feed because I haven't had a place to clean my guns in 20 years. 😧😯 My wife hates the smell of Hoppes #9!! It's been easier to just buy or build another gun than to clean one. I am still trying to get everything sorted out so I can clean my guns and pipes. I still have 192 clean pipes I can smoke before I absolutely have to clean one. Of course, I guess I could just buy another pipe and gun. 😁🤔🤠
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Post by trailboss on Jun 6, 2021 19:49:54 GMT -5
“ My wife hates the smell of Hoppes #9!!”
Incrementalism, grasshopper!
Two drops behind the ears, increase by one drop weekly. Pretty soon you will have her converted.
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Post by toshtego on Jun 6, 2021 20:05:31 GMT -5
I will believe it when I see the Coroner/Medical Examiner's report confirming this claim. Otherwise, bunk. Again no reflection on you Charlie. There is a lot of B.S. circulating within the internet, as we have all noticed. |
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Post by Ronv69 on Jun 6, 2021 20:55:40 GMT -5
“ My wife hates the smell of Hoppes #9!!” Incrementalism, grasshopper! Two drops behind the ears, increase by one drop weekly. Pretty soon you will have her converted. I told her that if she wanted more attention from me she should change her perfume to Hoppes. |
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Post by trailboss on Jun 6, 2021 21:23:41 GMT -5
I will believe it when I see the Coroner/Medical Examiner's report confirming this claim. Otherwise, bunk. Again no reflection on you Charlie. There is a lot of B.S. circulating within the internet, as we have all noticed. I respect your opinion John, but I have been fortunate to have as a next door neighbor a homicide detective that formerly worked with Bob Stasch, And now works in Scottsdale and he can vouch for the guy (He is a Scottsdale officer working as a homicide detective, my buddy also worked in an agency that worked with the FBI and US Marshals in hunting down the worst people that were on the run). I met Jim Cirillo that accompanied Mas Ayoob on a training session I attended in Tucson, and he pretty much pressed home the notion that you can never assume that a dead ender will not fight to the last breath. The human will is a strong tool in their bag. americanshootingjournal.com/modern-day-gunfighters/?amp-wp-skip-redirect=1It is always better to do your own homework on such issues. Certainly, situations like this are rare, but in the gravest extreme, it informs me to never take things for granted, |
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Post by Plainsman on Jun 6, 2021 21:30:25 GMT -5
“I never take anything for granite!” — Michelangelo Buonarotti
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Post by Plainsman on Jun 6, 2021 21:42:38 GMT -5
PS… I believe all BB ammo is hardcast lead. That would put a real limitation on 45 Auto performance. I forgot that when I asked for BB 45 performance figures. Sorry.
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Post by trailboss on Jun 6, 2021 22:01:42 GMT -5
No apologies necessary, understandable because hardcast is where they got their street cred. I reckon like any other industry they are on a positive trajectory in their R&D, and as the case is we are the beneficiaries. I have a buddy that buys CNC machined rounds that are about as wicked as can be...not inexpensive, and he is a load geek and probably has in excess of 100,000 rounds. I am trying to get on the beneficiary list when he checks out...he laughs at me.  |
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Post by Ronv69 on Jun 6, 2021 23:21:09 GMT -5
Zombieland Rule #2: Always Double Tap.
Multiple professional hunters: Always pay the insurance; ammunition is cheap compared to your life.
Texas dad to his daughter: If you decide to shoot someone, empty the magazine.
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Post by Gandalf on Jun 7, 2021 0:42:19 GMT -5
That 45 ACP is really a wimpy cartridge! 😁 It's a lot easier to hit the target with the M1 than with a pistol. My Marlin 9mm carbine is so dirty that it fails to feed because I haven't had a place to clean my guns in 20 years. 😧😯 My wife hates the smell of Hoppes #9!! It's been easier to just buy or build another gun than to clean one. I am still trying to get everything sorted out so I can clean my guns and pipes. I still have 192 clean pipes I can smoke before I absolutely have to clean one. Of course, I guess I could just buy another pipe and gun. 😁🤔🤠 I'll take any dirty guns you don't want to clean. |
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Post by Ronv69 on Jun 7, 2021 7:43:35 GMT -5
That 45 ACP is really a wimpy cartridge! 😁 It's a lot easier to hit the target with the M1 than with a pistol. My Marlin 9mm carbine is so dirty that it fails to feed because I haven't had a place to clean my guns in 20 years. 😧😯 My wife hates the smell of Hoppes #9!! It's been easier to just buy or build another gun than to clean one. I am still trying to get everything sorted out so I can clean my guns and pipes. I still have 192 clean pipes I can smoke before I absolutely have to clean one. Of course, I guess I could just buy another pipe and gun. 😁🤔🤠 I'll take any dirty guns you don't want to clean. Thanks! I'll be sure to let you know. 😁🤠 |
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Post by Plainsman on Jun 7, 2021 7:54:03 GMT -5
The ol’ double tap! I have three free-standing targets to which B27 or FBI or “bowling pin” man-sized targets can be attached. When I feel like sharpening up I set them up and do Mozambiques on them. I’m no speed-demon but a 1-second single target run is not hard to do. Doing all three takes longer since there are major sight-shifts to account for. Moving while doing all three is a good drill but will really show you how much practice you need! My best three target times run around 5-seconds these days, but this is standing still. Piddling compared to what the really good guys can do. Blows me away to watch ‘em on Youtube. Just to be clear— my times all start with the gun at low-ready. No draw..
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