henry
Junior Member
Posts: 108
Location:
|
Post by henry on Dec 4, 2021 14:13:36 GMT -5
Recently came across Boswell Chocolate Cream, which is highly reviewed. Triggered a recurring question I have: When a blend is described as having notes of cocoa, citrus, caramel etc. when does this mean flavor add-ons as opposed to what the cured tobacco suggests? I'm aware that burleys tend to have a chocolate presence, for example. Generally tobacco reviews don't discuss additives but rely strongly on "hints and suggestions" of something outside tobacco.
The bigger question--I guess--is how frequently aromatics have non-tobacco ingredients for flavor. Describing flavor using food/scent references goes beyond pipe tobacco: cigar and wine makers use similar language. Before ordering a tobacco I would like to know if it has been dosed with chocolate or if the flavor if from the tobacco & curing. Is this related to fermentation or is a fermented blend something else?
Thanks to all who would instruct me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Darin on Dec 4, 2021 14:23:47 GMT -5
If you buy an aro, expect it to usually be topped with flavorings that exceed and cover up most of the natural tobacco flavors. Natural Burley is not all that chocolate flavored and normally has more of a bready, nutty, woody flavor.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ronv69 on Dec 4, 2021 14:36:22 GMT -5
Wilke makes aros that don't overpower the tobacco taste. At least the older ones like #191 and #515. I don't know about the Peanut Butter and Chocolate.
|
|
|
|
Post by urbino on Dec 4, 2021 15:31:12 GMT -5
If you buy something that says it's an aromatic, it has added flavors. I think I've seen a couple of exceptions, but they're so rare they're not worth accounting for.
If you buy something that doesn't say it's an aromatic . . . it might still have added flavors. They'll just be more subtle and intended to balance out the tobacco flavors already in the blend rather than make the tobacco taste like something else.
|
|
|
|
Post by terrapinflyer on Dec 4, 2021 17:02:02 GMT -5
A: It depends. Urb said it pretty well. I just think it’s funny that a tobacco is noted for flavors of booze and a booze will be said to have notes of tobacco. It depends. Raw whole leaf is a different animal than smoking blends. Flavors can be added to bring out the natural flavors as well as achieve consistency over time with a given blend.
One of my favorite funky Belgian beer notes is "horse blanket." Really. I highly doubt that horse blankets are used in the brewing process.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ronv69 on Dec 4, 2021 19:25:26 GMT -5
Then there's Merde de Cheval.
|
|
|
|
Post by terrapinflyer on Dec 4, 2021 19:27:44 GMT -5
Then there's Merde de Cheval. That's natural. |
|
|
|
Post by darktater on Dec 4, 2021 19:28:19 GMT -5
I think by definition, ALL aromatics have added non-tobacco flavoring. I have the the 'notes' I am able to detect change over time, with different pipes, etc. It's part of what I love about smoking a pipe - it is almost always changing.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ronv69 on Dec 4, 2021 19:47:40 GMT -5
Then there's Merde de Cheval. That's natural. Even organic. There was a bunch on the street after today's Christmas parade. |
|
|
|
Post by Darin on Dec 5, 2021 11:31:55 GMT -5
Then there's Merde de Cheval. That's my name for ALL aro's. 😅😅😅 |
|
|
|
Post by terrapinflyer on Dec 5, 2021 11:56:16 GMT -5
Then there's Merde de Cheval. That's my name for ALL aro's. 😅😅😅 Aro snob. |
|
|
|
Post by Darin on Dec 5, 2021 11:58:12 GMT -5
That's my name for ALL aro's. 😅😅😅 Aro snob. Yyyyyupp! 😆 |
|
henry
Junior Member
Posts: 108
Location:
|
Post by henry on Dec 5, 2021 14:02:02 GMT -5
If you buy an aro, expect it to usually be topped with flavorings that exceed and cover up most of the natural tobacco flavors. Natural Burley is not all that chocolate flavored and normally has more of a bready, nutty, woody flavor. I'm approaching that conclusion. My usual preference is for a light unflavored cavendish, which likely still has some non tobacco stuff in it. One reviewer stated all good burleys have some cocoa flavor. My experience with burley (usually as an add-in) is that it can suggest cocoa but the flavor is more complex. In the end all review language is pretty darn subjective. It's ok to say a specific smoke experience is like apple pie (or a spring breeze etc) but in the end it still is an individual reading. Tobacco sellers are the driving advocates here. I's say any original blend description is at least 50% marketing. |
|
|
|
Post by Darin on Dec 5, 2021 16:42:46 GMT -5
If you buy an aro, expect it to usually be topped with flavorings that exceed and cover up most of the natural tobacco flavors. Natural Burley is not all that chocolate flavored and normally has more of a bready, nutty, woody flavor. I'm approaching that conclusion. My usual preference is for a light unflavored cavendish, which likely still has some non tobacco stuff in it. One reviewer stated all good burleys have some cocoa flavor. My experience with burley (usually as an add-in) is that it can suggest cocoa but the flavor is more complex. In the end all review language is pretty darn subjective. It's ok to say a specific smoke experience is like apple pie (or a spring breeze etc) but in the end it still is an individual reading. Tobacco sellers are the driving advocates here. I's say any original blend description is at least 50% marketing. Just FYI, Cavendish is a process and not a type of tobacco. If you're interested, I can tell you how to make your own using a pressure cooker. Leaf such as Flue Cured Virginia has enough natural sugar on its own but Burley requires at least some sugar water. One reason that reviewer claims what they do is that cocoa / chocolate are very common casings and toppings for Burley. Even my favorite straight Burleys, D&R Two Timer and Uhle's Blend 00 are fairly heavily cased and toasted. |
|
henry
Junior Member
Posts: 108
Location:
|
Post by henry on Dec 5, 2021 20:03:46 GMT -5
I'm approaching that conclusion. My usual preference is for a light unflavored cavendish, which likely still has some non tobacco stuff in it. One reviewer stated all good burleys have some cocoa flavor. My experience with burley (usually as an add-in) is that it can suggest cocoa but the flavor is more complex. In the end all review language is pretty darn subjective. It's ok to say a specific smoke experience is like apple pie (or a spring breeze etc) but in the end it still is an individual reading. Tobacco sellers are the driving advocates here. I's say any original blend description is at least 50% marketing. Just FYI, Cavendish is a process and not a type of tobacco. If you're interested, I can tell you how to make your own using a pressure cooker. Leaf such as Flue Cured Virginia has enough natural sugar on its own but Burley requires at least some sugar water. One reason that reviewer claims what they do is that cocoa / chocolate are very common casings and toppings for Burley. Even my favorite straight Burleys, D&R Two Timer and Uhle's Blend 00 are fairly heavily cased and toasted. You've intrigued me Darin. Are we talking using a pressure cooker with purchased straight Virginia? |
|
|
|
Post by terrapinflyer on Dec 6, 2021 9:24:33 GMT -5
Just FYI, Cavendish is a process and not a type of tobacco. If you're interested, I can tell you how to make your own using a pressure cooker. Leaf such as Flue Cured Virginia has enough natural sugar on its own but Burley requires at least some sugar water. One reason that reviewer claims what they do is that cocoa / chocolate are very common casings and toppings for Burley. Even my favorite straight Burleys, D&R Two Timer and Uhle's Blend 00 are fairly heavily cased and toasted. You've intrigued me Darin. Are we talking using a pressure cooker with purchased straight Virginia? That's what he's talking about. Darin is quite the baccy alchemist. He'll be back. |
|
|
|
Post by Darin on Dec 6, 2021 12:08:20 GMT -5
You've intrigued me Darin. Are we talking using a pressure cooker with purchased straight Virginia? That's what he's talking about. Darin is quite the baccy alchemist. He'll be back. 😊 With the pressure cooker, you can turn any leaf you desire into a Cavendish. The ones with higher sugar contents will be sweet and darker but I've even used cigar leaf with success. Basically, you are achieving the Maillard Reaction but not up to the caramelization temps. Pack a jar with the tobacco, add just enough water to moisten but not pooling in the bottom. Tighten the lid and place in the pressure cooker on a rack with water half way up the jars. Bring it up to pressure and let it go about 4 hours. Check the color and moisture level and repeat until desired color is reached. Then, dump into a bowl and dry down before jarring up and waiting. After a few months, it will be ready to go and keep getting better the longer you can wait. |
|
henry
Junior Member
Posts: 108
Location:
|
Post by henry on Dec 6, 2021 13:48:47 GMT -5
That's what he's talking about. Darin is quite the baccy alchemist. He'll be back. 😊 With the pressure cooker, you can turn any leaf you desire into a Cavendish. The ones with higher sugar contents will be sweet and darker but I've even used cigar leaf with success. Basically, you are achieving the Maillard Reaction but not up to the caramelization temps. Pack a jar with the tobacco, add just enough water to moisten but not pooling in the bottom. Tighten the lid and place in the pressure cooker on a rack with water half way up the jars. Bring it up to pressure and let it go about 4 hours. Check the color and moisture level and repeat until desired color is reached. Then, dump into a bowl and dry down before jarring up and waiting. After a few months, it will be ready to go and keep getting better the longer you can wait. Thanks Darin. Working with whole leaf tobacco only? |
|
|
|
Post by Darin on Dec 6, 2021 14:46:46 GMT -5
😊 With the pressure cooker, you can turn any leaf you desire into a Cavendish. The ones with higher sugar contents will be sweet and darker but I've even used cigar leaf with success. Basically, you are achieving the Maillard Reaction but not up to the caramelization temps. Pack a jar with the tobacco, add just enough water to moisten but not pooling in the bottom. Tighten the lid and place in the pressure cooker on a rack with water half way up the jars. Bring it up to pressure and let it go about 4 hours. Check the color and moisture level and repeat until desired color is reached. Then, dump into a bowl and dry down before jarring up and waiting. After a few months, it will be ready to go and keep getting better the longer you can wait. Thanks Darin. Working with whole leaf tobacco only? That's what I use but have used the same method on blends such as PS Cube Cut with good results. |
|
Zach
Pro Member
If you can't send money, send tobacco.
Posts: 4,360
First Name: Zach
Favorite Pipe: Too many currently, bound to change
Favorite Tobacco: Haunted Bookshop, Big 'N' Burley, Pegasus, Habana Daydream, OJK, Rum Twist, FVF, Escudo, Orlik Golden Sliced, Kendal Flake, Ennerdale
Location:
|
Post by Zach on Dec 7, 2021 13:35:28 GMT -5
If you buy any processed & blended tobacco at all, it's been processed and cased.(If it's a blend made by a manufacturer in either bulk or tin) This even goes for Haunted Bookshop and many blends that folks believe have no casing or added flavoring agents. Almost all threshed and processed tobacco is flavored with licorice, for example. In fairly small amounts, almost nobody can taste the licorice. They believe that it's "Naturally sweet VA leaf" but it's likely you tasting licorice, and unable to discern that's what is sweetening the leaf. All aromatics are cased, and raw burley does not taste like cocoa. It's mostly a big myth said to infinity by tobacco producers who are casing the burley with simple sugar and cocoa sprays. Carter Hall, Prince Albert, these tobaccos are heavily cased with molasses, sugar, and cocoa water mixtures. They are full aromatics. Cornell & Diehl use some of the least amount of casing they can get away with and the top ingredient used in their tobaccos is an anti-molding, food safe agent called Microban. After that, what's mostly used is the licorice and simple sugar casing on the leaf during processing.
Take something like Mac Baren HH "Pure Virginia" for example. This blend calls itself "pure Virginia" and many folks believe that's somehow true. It's very heavily cased in numerous sweeteners and tastes nothing like raw bright Virginia leaf at all. The intent is to use sweeteners to make the leaf tastier for most folks and to give a flavor push and sweetener boost that blends well with the tobacco.
One last bit I think I want to add here is that all the main tobacco manufacturers use natural food-grade flavoring agents. There are a few that use some slightly questionable cans-of-worms, such as humectant agents like propylene glycol to keep their tobaccos feeling constantly moist and "fresh." There are many vanilla flavored tobaccos on the market that still use Tonquin, or Tonka Bean to impart a vanilla flavor naturally in the tobacco. Tonka bean contains naturally high levels of coumarin, which is carcinogenic.
40-50 some years ago, many of the top OTC pipe blends also used burn agents that were chemical additives to keep the burn rate consistent in their blends. This is still done today in all cigarettes but it's mostly not done in pipe tobaccos any longer.
|
|
|
|
Post by urbino on Dec 7, 2021 22:14:23 GMT -5
I've never heard anybody make that statement about the HH line, before. Interesting.
|
|
henry
Junior Member
Posts: 108
Location:
|
Post by henry on Dec 7, 2021 22:31:53 GMT -5
If you buy any processed & blended tobacco at all, it's been processed and cased.(If it's a blend made by a manufacturer in either bulk or tin) This even goes for Haunted Bookshop and many blends that folks believe have no casing or added flavoring agents. Almost all threshed and processed tobacco is flavored with licorice, for example. In fairly small amounts, almost nobody can taste the licorice. They believe that it's "Naturally sweet VA leaf" but it's likely you tasting licorice, and unable to discern that's what is sweetening the leaf. All aromatics are cased, and raw burley does not taste like cocoa. It's mostly a big myth said to infinity by tobacco producers who are casing the burley with simple sugar and cocoa sprays. Carter Hall, Prince Albert, these tobaccos are heavily cased with molasses, sugar, and cocoa water mixtures. They are full aromatics. Cornell & Diehl use some of the least amount of casing they can get away with and the top ingredient used in their tobaccos is an anti-molding, food safe agent called Microban. After that, what's mostly used is the licorice and simple sugar casing on the leaf during processing.
Take something like Mac Baren HH "Pure Virginia" for example. This blend calls itself "pure Virginia" and many folks believe that's somehow true. It's very heavily cased in numerous sweeteners and tastes nothing like raw bright Virginia leaf at all. The intent is to use sweeteners to make the leaf tastier for most folks and to give a flavor push and sweetener boost that blends well with the tobacco.
One last bit I think I want to add here is that all the main tobacco manufacturers use natural food-grade flavoring agents. There are a few that use some slightly questionable cans-of-worms, such as humectant agents like propylene glycol to keep their tobaccos feeling constantly moist and "fresh." There are many vanilla flavored tobaccos on the market that still use Tonquin, or Tonka Bean to impart a vanilla flavor naturally in the tobacco. Tonka bean contains naturally high levels of coumarin, which is carcinogenic.
40-50 some years ago, many of the top OTC pipe blends also used burn agents that were chemical additives to keep the burn rate consistent in their blends. This is still done today in all cigarettes but it's mostly not done in pipe tobaccos any longer.
______________________________________________
Cigarettes were / are engineered to be addictive. Pipe tobacco (and cigars) are more of craft focused on production of a succulent product. Difference between lead laced hooch and a 15 year old scotch. I may be the odd bird in the forum for being adverse to cigarette smoke.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ronv69 on Dec 7, 2021 23:26:32 GMT -5
I'm also very adverse to cigarette smoke. I don't mind the toppings on the tobacco, but I do try to stick with premium brands in the hope that they use better additives.
|
|
Zach
Pro Member
If you can't send money, send tobacco.
Posts: 4,360
First Name: Zach
Favorite Pipe: Too many currently, bound to change
Favorite Tobacco: Haunted Bookshop, Big 'N' Burley, Pegasus, Habana Daydream, OJK, Rum Twist, FVF, Escudo, Orlik Golden Sliced, Kendal Flake, Ennerdale
Location:
|
Post by Zach on Dec 8, 2021 8:55:28 GMT -5
I've never heard anybody make that statement about the HH line, before. Interesting. Make what statement? That Pure Virginia is cased? It actually says it's lightly cased in the blend description itself. Plus, it's clearly cased.
cigarettes are about 50% tobacco, 50% mother's liquor, burn agents, flame retardants, PH balancing chems to uptake nicotine faster.
Cigarettes were also made for women, as was light beer.  |
|
Zach
Pro Member
If you can't send money, send tobacco.
Posts: 4,360
First Name: Zach
Favorite Pipe: Too many currently, bound to change
Favorite Tobacco: Haunted Bookshop, Big 'N' Burley, Pegasus, Habana Daydream, OJK, Rum Twist, FVF, Escudo, Orlik Golden Sliced, Kendal Flake, Ennerdale
Location:
|
Post by Zach on Dec 8, 2021 9:29:37 GMT -5
There's a distinction between casing, and topping. Almost every single blend by every single manufacturer cases their tobaccos with at least licorice and simple sugar sprays. Casing is defined in the tobacco industry by what's applied to tobaccos pre-processing and doesn't have to be considered "added flavoring." I know, crazy. Topping is where it has to be considered flavored, and it's flavorings that are added in the final stage of production. Also called top-noting. Pure Virginia Flake can say that it's not got added flavoring, while also stating that it's "mildly cased."
|
|
|
|
Post by terrapinflyer on Dec 8, 2021 13:23:28 GMT -5
Zach is absolutely correct about casings and toppings. HH claims minimal casing; Pease claims his Union Square is as close to uncased as his blends get. And liquorice is used in almost all baccy as subliminal sweetener, i.e., it sweetens without being prominent enough to be identified as liquorice. It's not a big secret, but people seem not to want to believe it.
It's crazy that cigarettes have burn agents in the tobacco and then they add flame retardant to the paper to make them "safe." The flame retardant is usually carpet glue...mmmm. I smoke the occasional rollie with Amsterdam or Three Sails and there is a huge difference to Winston, Marlboro, &c.
|
|
henry
Junior Member
Posts: 108
Location:
|
Post by henry on Dec 8, 2021 13:56:20 GMT -5
I'm also very adverse to cigarette smoke. I don't mind the toppings on the tobacco, but I do try to stick with premium brands in the hope that they use better additives. To date my favorite reviewer description is one that compares English Blends to a steak dinner. If so what does that make my go to, non aromatic cavendish? Unflavored jello with saltines?  |
|
Zach
Pro Member
If you can't send money, send tobacco.
Posts: 4,360
First Name: Zach
Favorite Pipe: Too many currently, bound to change
Favorite Tobacco: Haunted Bookshop, Big 'N' Burley, Pegasus, Habana Daydream, OJK, Rum Twist, FVF, Escudo, Orlik Golden Sliced, Kendal Flake, Ennerdale
Location:
|
Post by Zach on Dec 8, 2021 13:57:38 GMT -5
Yes. Licorice even up to fairly larger doses on raw tobacco is undetected by most other than a "non-descript sweetness"
It's primary use globally is to take the rough bitter edge out of tobaccos.
Glycyrrhizin has a sweetness rating 30-50x sweeter than sugar. Licorice also acts as a bronchodilator, making it easier to inhale tobacco smoke into the lungs. Most also don't believe the Marlboro Reds they smoke are cased in licorice. Most licorice gets used by the tobacco industry, then candy and foods.
|
|
Zach
Pro Member
If you can't send money, send tobacco.
Posts: 4,360
First Name: Zach
Favorite Pipe: Too many currently, bound to change
Favorite Tobacco: Haunted Bookshop, Big 'N' Burley, Pegasus, Habana Daydream, OJK, Rum Twist, FVF, Escudo, Orlik Golden Sliced, Kendal Flake, Ennerdale
Location:
|
Post by Zach on Dec 8, 2021 14:01:01 GMT -5
I'm also very adverse to cigarette smoke. I don't mind the toppings on the tobacco, but I do try to stick with premium brands in the hope that they use better additives. To date my favorite reviewer description is one that compares English Blends to a steak dinner. If so what does that make my go to, non aromatic cavendish? Unflavored jello with saltines? Low grade burley that's been cooked in sugar. Sorry, I had to go there!
If you're looking for a smoke that does really taste like the char on a steak, look no further than Black XX twist from Sam Gawith, or the Black Twist from Gawith Hoggarth. Black XX twist tastes uncannily like the char on burnt meat, coupled with the taste of what a candle wick smells like right when you blow out a candle and smell that wick smoke. No added flavoring, they take brown flue cured Virginia leaf and they stove it until it turns black and gets a charred taste to it.
|
|
|
|
Post by urbino on Dec 8, 2021 22:12:46 GMT -5
There's a distinction between casing, and topping. Almost every single blend by every single manufacturer cases their tobaccos with at least licorice and simple sugar sprays. Casing is defined in the tobacco industry by what's applied to tobaccos pre-processing and doesn't have to be considered "added flavoring." I know, crazy. Topping is where it has to be considered flavored, and it's flavorings that are added in the final stage of production. Also called top-noting. Pure Virginia Flake can say that it's not got added flavoring, while also stating that it's "mildly cased." I'm aware of the distinction. You said Pure Virginia is "heavily cased." That's what I hadn't heard before about it (or any of the HH line). |
|
